Enid Street Liverpool and stolen idenity

[lmbridgen]

My grandfather stole someones identity as easly as 1931.

The only real clues I have to his true identity are some photos that he left.

On one picture there was a name and address on the back
? J Adam(s)
13 Enid Street
Liverpool

The picture shows a uniformed man from the 19th Hussars taken approx 1908-1914
Im not sure if this man is my grandfather or a close relative

I wrote to this address but never got a reply.

On the 1911 census there is noone at that address with the name Adam(s)

Is anyone able to shed any light or point me in a better direction

Thanks Linda

If anyone would be interested in seeing the picture please email me at LMBRIDGEN2 [at] BTINTERNET.COM

Email address amended to prevent spamming, change the [at] to @ to use. MA

[CaroleW]

Hi and welcome

Whose identity did he steal and how did you find that information?

[dickiesam]

Hello Linda,
I suggest you post the picture you mention here so our expert, and not-so-expert, people can see it and hopefully confirm the uniform and period.

You can't upload a photograph directly to this forum but this is one of the easiest ways to do it 'indirectly' in 6 easy steps.
1) Make sure the photo scan is the best quality you can manage.
2) Join http://photobucket.com/ for free. This is an image hosting website.
3) Upload your picture to the site and click on the IMG Code under the photo you want to show. A yellow box flashes up, with Copied written on it.
4) Now go to the 'Post a reply' box on the topic you have opened on this forum, where you want show your photo. Write your message and when ready to insert the picture hold down the Control Key at the same time as pressing the V key.
5) This will paste the code that you copied from Photobucket into your message.
6) Press 'Preview' to see your photo before you submit your message.

And, I have to repeat CaroleW's question... 'Whose identity did he steal and how did you find that information?'

Intrigued...
Dickiesam

[lmbridgen]

Thanks for the picture advice.
The picture is the front and back the scan shows the address as 3 Enid street but the original says 13.

My story:

My grandad told us his name was Albert Edward Carter born 4th Dec 1909 but that he never knew his mum or dad being illigitimate.

A few years ago I ordered a copy of hi birth certificate to see what his mums name was only to find a mum and dad named on the certificate.

Through genes reunited I found someone with the same family and sent them a message stating to be their long lost relative only to find that the contact was the grandson of Alberts brother Sidney Carter and he knew his uncle Albert very well and he was not married to my grandmother.

A few years later I started looking on the 1911 census and found the family again. I contacted them again and this time we exchanged photos and clearly The real Albert Carter and my grandafther were not the same man. I thought I must have made a mistake somehow and ordered a copy of my grandparents marriage certificate and my grandfather had said his fathers name was Robert Sidney Carter a PO worker ( deceased ) - the same name and profession as the real Albert and Sidneys father only when my grandfather married in 1939 Robert carter was still very much alive!!
My grandfather enlisted in 1931 using the name Albert Edward Carter.

One of his old photos was of a baby that has been dated to 1901c and I have since contacted many other members of the Carter family through Ancestry and we have swapped pictures.......My granfather bears a striking resembelance to some of them and with his detailed knowledge of Alberts full name and DOB as well as Roberts full name and occupation we all feel that my grandfather knew the family very well.........bizarely the death certificates of both the Alberts are exactly the same.
Albert Edward Carter 04/12/1909 Edmonton
Paint and decorator ( retired )
and both died of exatly the same heart condition !!!!
8 years difference on death date is the only thing seperating the two.

I have spent a long time searching for him and all Im really left with is the strange address and name on the picture.( not sure if it is grandad but looks an awful lot like him ? )
As far as my family know grandad had no connection with Liverpool at all ?

thanks for any help Linda

[lmbridgen]

front of picture

Linda

[daggers]

A fine photo of a Hussar in full dress, but I do not know which regiment.
D

[dickiesam]

Hi Linda,
Intriguing story indeed! Just a couple of questions.. Where was Albert Edward Carter [aka your g.father] born. In Middlesex by any chance? A search for Robert Sydney Carter threw up a hit in Middlesex, bn Clapton 1881? He's not a postman but a Robert Thomas Carter bn Islington 1883 is! What was Albert's given age on his 1939 marriage to your g.mother [Elizabeth Jefferys?].

Assuming the Hussar might be J L Adams, have you been able to trace any military records on Anc? Can you scan that birth cert you received showing a father and mother but no child's name? I know there are a number of 'un-named' birth registrations, but have never seen a cert with no child's name. Is the father named on that cert the same one as on Albert's marriage cert?

Without seeing a comparison photo of your g.father I can't comment on a likeness to the Hussar. But if you think there is one, could the Hussar be your g.g.father? After all he looks to be in his early to mid-twenties?

[Katie]

It look like Mr D. J. Adam(s) to me. Does anyone have Gores directories after 1911 to check the names of those who have lived there during world war one

[simone]

Looks like B J Adam (s) to me

[erika]

1914 Gores

13 Enid Street John Rooney Dock Labourer

Cheers
Erika

[taj1]

My Aunty lived in that house from 1970 right up to 1995 . Her Aunty lived next door

[lmbridgen]

Thanks everyone for lot of replies

dickiesam: The real Alberts father was Robert Sidney Carter born 1877 Islington
My grandfather when he married my grandmother Alice Ethel Andrews in 1939 says he was 29 and he father was Robert Sidney Carter.

Sorry I confused you about birth certificate I was expecting no fathers name not a married couple.

I have tried to look for military records but nut been very sucesful as Im not sure on the name ?J Adam(s) and I have also wondered if that was the name of ther person the postcard was sent to rather than the person in the picture? what do you think?

Taj1 Can you tell me your Aunties surname either before or after marriage? or her aunties? How weird for you seeing her address being mentioned ! I would have loved to haave known someone from the street that had been there years that might recognise the picture or the name.

This might sound like a stupid question but not being from that area can anyone tell me if there was a time when that park of Liverpool was Lancashire rather than Merseyside as it seems to be now?

Oh whats that list of names posted? is it a list of people that have lived at that adress?


Thanks again everyone .... I have nearly given up on finding out the truth on this one, just cant let it go yet!

Linda

[dickiesam]

Hi Linda,
Re:

Sorry I confused you about birth certificate I was expecting no fathers name not a married couple.

Are the names of the parents on Albert's birth cert Robert Sydney and Edith Clara Carter nee Sparrow?
Marriages Mar 1910> CARTER, Robert Sidney to SPARROW, Edith Clara - Edmonton - 3a - 617.

The only 1909 Middlesex birth I can see is this one..
Births Dec 1909: Carter, Albert George Edward - Edmonton - 3a - 697. Parents Samuel George and Edith Carter.
And the nearest one without the George is this..
Births Mar 1910: CARTER, Albert Edward - Edmonton - 3a - 537.

Wondering that if the parents are as above and Albert doesn't appear with the family in the 1911 census was he given up and put in an orphanage? Or fostered out because formal adoptions weren't available until the 1920s. If Albert tried to track down his parents later in life he may have simply erred and decided on the wrong Robert Carter. Marriages Mar 1908: CARTER, Robert Thomas [postman] to WALSBY, Agnes - Islington - 1b - 317.

Of the two Alberts above [1909 and 1910] which one have you been able to confirm as not being your g.father? Or have you tracked another one? I have found at least 2 Robert Carters who worked for the Post Office who had a son Albert!

This might sound like a stupid question but not being from that area can anyone tell me if there was a time when that part of Liverpool was Lancashire rather than Merseyside as it seems to be now?

Yes, it used to be all Lancashire. I think Merseyside was created by Maggie Thatcher in the 1980s. I've been away since 1962 so don't know for certain when it happened.

Dickiesam

[lmbridgen]

Thanks Dickiesam

The Albert Carter im looking at is the 1910 I figured he wasnt registered until Jan 1910.

Robert Sidney Carter married Emily Rebecca Lawrence in 1902 she was 5 months pregnant with Sydney Carter

Emily I found out had had several illigitmate children with the surname Aubrey. Her daughter Lily was born in Edmonton workhouse 1899 and was the only one still living with her the others ( older than Lily ) on the 1911 were living with their father George ad his wife !.
Emily Rebecca had a child in early 1900 called Charles and I thought at one time this might have been my grandfather but it seems Charles died later in 1900.

You are good searching for me thank you so much

Linda

[taj1]

My Auntys name was Maureen Jones . Her Aunty was Margaret Dwyer
although I am not sure what her married name was .

[Tina]

What a handsome young man
was he a drummer??

Tina

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Re:

The Albert Carter I'm looking at is the 1910. I figured he wasn't registered until Jan 1910.

Do you have the birth cert for this birth? Mar 1910: CARTER, Albert Edward - Edmonton - 3a - 537
Even if he was registered late the actual date of birth would be on the cert. So what is the actual DoB?

Just pondering... I am beginning to think that Albert didn't "steal" an identity after all. Why would he say he was illegitimate if he wasn't? If he "never knew his parents" how did he know his father as Robert Sidney Carter, Post Office worker?

I think there is a strong possibility that he was indeed illegitimate and had the name Albert Carter [perhaps with the Edward] when he was put into an orphanage as a baby. Some time later as an adult, possibly in the 30s, he decided to find his 'past' as it were. He would have been looking for his birth details and without the benefit of easy access to BMDs that we have today it would have been very difficult. He may have plumbed for the wrong birth and assumed RSC was his biological father. We don't know how cooperative the orphanage would have been but I know from experience in my own family they could be extraordinarily unhelpful.

As I said earlier I have come across a surprising number of Robert Carters who worked for the Post Office in Middlesex around 1900 to 1912. And there are 13 Albert Carters born in Middlesex between 1908 and 1910!

Dickiesam

[lmbridgen]

This is the 1910 birth cerificate ... this is not my grandfathers as I dont know wwhen he was born.

The my grandparents marriage certificate and my grandads death certificate.

I can see what you mean by this being my grandads mistake about his true DOB and so subsequent real family. As he had old family pictures of a baby and a coupld of an unknown woman would the orphanage have kept them and given them to him when he left? If you have some experience of this can you tell me where I should look next? am I looking for orphanage records in Middlesex area?

Thanks Linda

[lmbridgen]

Do you knowwhat I think you might be onto something

On the birth certificate it say PO porter

the same profession as stated on the mariage certificate but strangely on the real Alberts marriage certificate in 1936 it states General Labourer as Roberts profession.

It looks like maybe my grandad got fathers information from a birth certificate that wasnt his....maybe a mistake?

I need time to think this through.... so my grandad thought he was Albert Edward Carter 4/12/1909 but he may have been a completely different Albert Carter?? what now? look at all the births of Albert Carter to see if a different one fits?

hmmmm

Linda