Hi
I am doing my family tree, and so completely addicted!! I received a copy of a marriage certificate today for my great aunt Clarice Edith Johns. I haven't been able to trace a birth certificate for her, so was really looking forward to seeing her fathers name on the marriage certificate (hoping it might be different!).
However, he is shown as 'Joseph Johns' and his occupation is a Marine. Does anyone have any ideas on how I could track him? I have no knowledge other than that.
I can't find the family on any Census. Very frustrating! Clarice also supposedly had a sister called Margaret (according to mums childhood memory). Hoping someone with more experience than me might have some tips!.
Clarices' wedding was in St James church, West Derby. My whole family on all sides is West Derby!
Any help would be extremely gratefully received!
New to all this- HELP! - Johns Family
-
Trix
Marine, West Derby
Sorry, should have said that Clarices' marriage was 1923, and she was aged 32 thanks
Clarice Edith Johns
Hi Trix,
Is her father, Joseph Johns, shown on the marriage cert as Marine or Mariner? If the former he would have in the military, sometimes attached to the Navy and during WW1 to the Merchant Navy. In both cases it could explain his absence from some censuses but not all. Is he also indicated as deceased?
As for Clarice being missing from censuses as well.. that's strange but given Joseph Johns occupation(s) she could have been born abroad. That said, she would normally be in the Overseas or Military birth indexes but it looks like she is 'hiding'. It is also possible her birth name was not Johns and she was 'taken in', a form of unofficial adoption, when quite young by the Johns family and took their name.
I noticed that there was a birth from her marriage to George Bennison:
Name: BENNISON, George E - [Johns] - Reg District: West Derby - 1927 - Sep qtr - Volume # 8B - Page # 1137.
Sorry not much help,
Dickiesam
Is her father, Joseph Johns, shown on the marriage cert as Marine or Mariner? If the former he would have in the military, sometimes attached to the Navy and during WW1 to the Merchant Navy. In both cases it could explain his absence from some censuses but not all. Is he also indicated as deceased?
As for Clarice being missing from censuses as well.. that's strange but given Joseph Johns occupation(s) she could have been born abroad. That said, she would normally be in the Overseas or Military birth indexes but it looks like she is 'hiding'. It is also possible her birth name was not Johns and she was 'taken in', a form of unofficial adoption, when quite young by the Johns family and took their name.
I noticed that there was a birth from her marriage to George Bennison:
Name: BENNISON, George E - [Johns] - Reg District: West Derby - 1927 - Sep qtr - Volume # 8B - Page # 1137.
Sorry not much help,
Dickiesam
DS
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
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I think the lady may have given an incorrect age at marriage.
Death Registration
Clarice Edith BENNISON
Birth date 10 March 1883
died December Q 1975
Death registered Birkenhead
Playing on the free index on the 1911 census I found a CLARISSA EDITH JOHNS born 1883. You need to purchase some credits to see the actual household schedule
This lady's birth registration is possibly this one
Clarissa Edith JONES
June Quarter 1883
Birkenhead Registration District
Volume 8a page 498
If you send for the birth certificate you can specify father's name.
I have now found a possible sighting of her in 1901 again as Clarissa Edith JONES living 43 Buckingham Road West Derby in a household with no parents but a brother James!
Hilary
Ed Officer
Death Registration
Clarice Edith BENNISON
Birth date 10 March 1883
died December Q 1975
Death registered Birkenhead
Playing on the free index on the 1911 census I found a CLARISSA EDITH JOHNS born 1883. You need to purchase some credits to see the actual household schedule
This lady's birth registration is possibly this one
Clarissa Edith JONES
June Quarter 1883
Birkenhead Registration District
Volume 8a page 498
If you send for the birth certificate you can specify father's name.
I have now found a possible sighting of her in 1901 again as Clarissa Edith JONES living 43 Buckingham Road West Derby in a household with no parents but a brother James!
Hilary
Ed Officer
1891 census 286 Cleveland Street Birkenhead
Joseph JONES H M 29 general labourer bn oxton
Sarah A JONES wife 30 bn Birkenhead
Clarice E daughter 8
James A son 5
Maggie M daughter 2
wife and children all born Birkenhead
Soemhow by accident or design maybe JONES became JOHNs
what does everyone think?
Hilary
Ed Officer
Joseph JONES H M 29 general labourer bn oxton
Sarah A JONES wife 30 bn Birkenhead
Clarice E daughter 8
James A son 5
Maggie M daughter 2
wife and children all born Birkenhead
Soemhow by accident or design maybe JONES became JOHNs
what does everyone think?
Hilary
Ed Officer
-
Trix
Thank you for your replies.
DickieSam, Yes sorry, Joseph Johns is listed a deceased on the marriage certificate of his daughter, and it definately says Marine. I did wonder whether they could have been born abroad, though I wouldn't know where to start in researching this. I have Clarissa at the time of her marriage living at 19 Moscow Drive, West Derby, though on the Ancestry address search, no. 19 is not there! I have wondered whether she may have been illigitimate at birth, and aquired the Johns surname at a later date, or been 'unofficially adopted' as you say. Is there some record of name changes somewhere?
I too found the birth of their son. My mum remembers him as Uncle Eric (though she lost touch with this side of the family at age 10 die to her mothers death), and I note he only died in 1999, so I will try contacting neighbours to find out whether anyone knew him.
Hilary - Yes, I too found the death certificate for Edith Bennison, Birkenhead, which would tie in with their son dying in Birkenhead too. It is the age on her marriage certificate that is throwing everything out of synch.
Another friend also like you found the Jones connection, and is seems too similar to not be linked. However, why would they all have changed from Jones to Johns? And Clarice have changed her name from Clarissa? Would there be a record of this somewhere? The Jones that you have found does have the name Joseph as her father, and Sarah as her mother. It is all very confusing and I am perplexed, just want to find out the facts!!
Is there a way I could trace Josephs details through Marines?
thank you SO MUCH for you help!!
DickieSam, Yes sorry, Joseph Johns is listed a deceased on the marriage certificate of his daughter, and it definately says Marine. I did wonder whether they could have been born abroad, though I wouldn't know where to start in researching this. I have Clarissa at the time of her marriage living at 19 Moscow Drive, West Derby, though on the Ancestry address search, no. 19 is not there! I have wondered whether she may have been illigitimate at birth, and aquired the Johns surname at a later date, or been 'unofficially adopted' as you say. Is there some record of name changes somewhere?
I too found the birth of their son. My mum remembers him as Uncle Eric (though she lost touch with this side of the family at age 10 die to her mothers death), and I note he only died in 1999, so I will try contacting neighbours to find out whether anyone knew him.
Hilary - Yes, I too found the death certificate for Edith Bennison, Birkenhead, which would tie in with their son dying in Birkenhead too. It is the age on her marriage certificate that is throwing everything out of synch.
Another friend also like you found the Jones connection, and is seems too similar to not be linked. However, why would they all have changed from Jones to Johns? And Clarice have changed her name from Clarissa? Would there be a record of this somewhere? The Jones that you have found does have the name Joseph as her father, and Sarah as her mother. It is all very confusing and I am perplexed, just want to find out the facts!!
Is there a way I could trace Josephs details through Marines?
thank you SO MUCH for you help!!
Clarice/Clarissa Edith Johns
Hi,
Just as Hilary spotted a Clarissa Johns bn 1883 in the free 1911 index and you had mentioned the possibility of a sister Margaret, the same index has a Margaret Johns bn 1889.
You should definitely get some credits to search the 1911 further. Noticed that on the 1901 that Clarissa and brother James were the only residents of # 43 Buckingham Road, Tuebrook and were enumerated as daughter and son of the householder despite the head of household not being present.
Re Clarissa and Clarice.. you are what you prefer to be known by. For a forename change you just do it, particularly if it is very similar. Clarice sounds classier anyway! And Jones/Johns..? These slight name changes do happen and since Clarice apparently lied about her age when she married, maybe she thought Jones was a bit 'low brow' and switched to Johns?
EDIT! Just found this.. in 1891:
JONES, Joseph - Head - Married - 29 - 1862 - General Labourer - Oxton, Cheshire.
JONES, Sarah A - Wife - 30 - 1861 - Birkenhead, Cheshire.
JONES, Clarice E - Dtr - 8 - 1883 - Scholar - Birkenhead.
JONES, James A - Son - 5 - 1886 - Scholar - Birkenhead.
JONES, Maggie M - Dtr - 2 - 1889 - Birkenhead.
Address: 286 Corporation Road, Birkenhead.
RG12 / Piece:2886 / Folio:7 / Page:10.
Everything fits apart from Joseph being a deceased Marine and that could be a white lie! He would be too old to have served in WW1. Who were the witnesses at the 1923 wedding?
Dickiesam
Just as Hilary spotted a Clarissa Johns bn 1883 in the free 1911 index and you had mentioned the possibility of a sister Margaret, the same index has a Margaret Johns bn 1889.
You should definitely get some credits to search the 1911 further. Noticed that on the 1901 that Clarissa and brother James were the only residents of # 43 Buckingham Road, Tuebrook and were enumerated as daughter and son of the householder despite the head of household not being present.
Re Clarissa and Clarice.. you are what you prefer to be known by. For a forename change you just do it, particularly if it is very similar. Clarice sounds classier anyway! And Jones/Johns..? These slight name changes do happen and since Clarice apparently lied about her age when she married, maybe she thought Jones was a bit 'low brow' and switched to Johns?
EDIT! Just found this.. in 1891:
JONES, Joseph - Head - Married - 29 - 1862 - General Labourer - Oxton, Cheshire.
JONES, Sarah A - Wife - 30 - 1861 - Birkenhead, Cheshire.
JONES, Clarice E - Dtr - 8 - 1883 - Scholar - Birkenhead.
JONES, James A - Son - 5 - 1886 - Scholar - Birkenhead.
JONES, Maggie M - Dtr - 2 - 1889 - Birkenhead.
Address: 286 Corporation Road, Birkenhead.
RG12 / Piece:2886 / Folio:7 / Page:10.
Everything fits apart from Joseph being a deceased Marine and that could be a white lie! He would be too old to have served in WW1. Who were the witnesses at the 1923 wedding?
Dickiesam
DS
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Clarice/Clarissa Edith Johns
This is the nearest I could find for Joseph Jones, bn Oxton Cheshire, in the 1901. No sign of his wife Sarah A though. He seems to be boarding with a possible relative [perhaps brother] Thomas Jones.
JONES, Joseph - Boarder - Married - 39 - 1862 - Domestic Coachman - Oxton, Cheshire.
Address: 10 Barton Street, Birkenhead.
RG13 / Piece:3392 / Folio:44 / Page:33.
I'm guessing but this looks like him in 1881:
THOMPSON, Martha - Head - Widow - 52 - 1829 - Oxton, Cheshire.
JONES, Thomas - Boarder - Married - 50 - 1831 - Labourer - Oxton.
JONES, Joseph - Son - Single - 19 - 1862 - Labourer - Oxton.
JONES, Alice - Dtr - Single - 21 - 1860 - Laundress - Oxton.
JONES, Joseph - Nephew - Single - 30 - 1851 - Labourer - Oxton.
Address: 8 Tranmere Vale Terrace, Birkenhead.
RG11 / Piece:3581 / Folio:78 / Page:74.
If Clarice Johns really was Clarissa Jones I can understand the subtle name change! All those Jones......
Martha Thompson [widow] and the Jones family are here in 1871:
Address: Moss Street, Oxton Village.
RG10 / Piece:3752 / Folio:88 / Page:24
Dickiesam
JONES, Joseph - Boarder - Married - 39 - 1862 - Domestic Coachman - Oxton, Cheshire.
Address: 10 Barton Street, Birkenhead.
RG13 / Piece:3392 / Folio:44 / Page:33.
I'm guessing but this looks like him in 1881:
THOMPSON, Martha - Head - Widow - 52 - 1829 - Oxton, Cheshire.
JONES, Thomas - Boarder - Married - 50 - 1831 - Labourer - Oxton.
JONES, Joseph - Son - Single - 19 - 1862 - Labourer - Oxton.
JONES, Alice - Dtr - Single - 21 - 1860 - Laundress - Oxton.
JONES, Joseph - Nephew - Single - 30 - 1851 - Labourer - Oxton.
Address: 8 Tranmere Vale Terrace, Birkenhead.
RG11 / Piece:3581 / Folio:78 / Page:74.
If Clarice Johns really was Clarissa Jones I can understand the subtle name change! All those Jones......
Martha Thompson [widow] and the Jones family are here in 1871:
Address: Moss Street, Oxton Village.
RG10 / Piece:3752 / Folio:88 / Page:24
Dickiesam
DS
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Member # 7743
RIP 20 April 2015
Emery, McAnaspie/McAnaspri etc, Fry, McGibbon/McKibbion etc, Burbage, Butler, Brady, Foulkes, Sarsfield, Moon [Bristol & Cornwall].
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
