Richard Wynne Hughes

[SCALES]

Hi

I am trying to find a birth for Richard Wynne Hughes Born Liverpool 1867.
Mother Alice Hughes and Father possibly Robert Wynne Hughes ( occupation custom house officer )

I have the death and Marriage cert for Richard but have not been able to find a birth.

all census records show him living in wales with his welsh mother and siblings but place of birth shows Liverpool.

I have ordered certs for 3 possible births in Liverpool area but none are correct
they are Liverpool sept 1867 8b 121 and Dec 1867 8b 102
and West Derby Mar 1867 8b 371 ,

I have posted on another forum but have not been sucessful .

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... 099.0.html

any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Scales

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Can you post a couple of census page references where you found Richard, in 1871 to start and any later ones you have? Especially if Robert, his father, is with the family.

The reference to being born in Liverpool might be misleading. The place of birth can be different from where the birth was actually registered. The GRO Birth Indexes, as used by FreeBMD etc, show where a birth was registered, not where a child was born. While births were 'officially' supposed to be registered in the nearest Registry Office within 5 weeks, it was sometimes the case that the birth was registered elsewhere.

A possible scenario... This birth was registered in Aberystwyth: Births Dec 1866 > HUGHES, Richard W - Aberystwyth - 11b - 59.
But the child could have been born a couple of weeks earlier in Liverpool and the family came back to Aberystwyth, omitting to register the child in Liverpool before they left. There was no way they were going to travel all the way back to Liverpool to register the child's birth.

Dickiesam

[MaryA]

I'm inclined to agree with the consensus of opinion on the other forum, that Robert Wynne Hughes may not have existed, especially as a husband of Alice and I'm basing this gut feeling on Alice being single in 1871 and then having a further child. She could have given any name on the birth certificate.

If however, you are inclined to believe that the children have been given the middle name "Wynne" at birth the best you could do is to ask either the Liverpool Register Office or the GRO to do a search for any child that was given this middle name, between the appropriate years. Hopefully this way you will lose less money in incorrect certificates. I noticed that you have been very selective in those that you have ordered, eg I don't think you considered
John W R Hughes West Derby Q2 1866 vol 8b pg 551

The W and R could well be significant.

I did a search in the newspapers to see if I could find any mention of a Customs Officer by the name of Robert Hughes or Robert Wynne, unfortunately without success.

[SCALES]

It is actually Richards Brother Hugh that is my main interest as he is my g grandfather but hit a wall with him ages ago. i thought i would try to find Robert Wynne Hiughes via Richards Birth . This is what I know so far

1871 Census : Class: RG10; Piece: 5709; Folio: 7; Page: 7
Alice Hughes with her widowed father ( Richard Hughes ) as unmarried along with her son Richard Hughes.


Hugh Born born abt 1873 Edyrn/Edern Carnarvon Father as listed as Robert Wynne on Hugh's Marriage cert ( Occupation Custom House Officer ) Deceased by 1895 but cant find a definate death for him

She then Married Hugh Roberts in 1877 as shown on 1881 census

1881 Census : Class: RG11; Piece: 5561; Folio: 86; Page: 3
Syneite Terrace, Pistill, Caernarvonshire, Wales
With Mother Alice & step father etc ( Richard And Hugh Both have same Father according to their Marriage Certs
( Robert Wynne Hughes deceased by 1895 but cannot find a definate Death record )
Hugh Roberts 27
Alice Roberts 32
Richd. Wynne Hughes 14 Born Liverpool
Hugh John Hughes 7 Born Edyrn Carnarvon
John Hughes Roberts 4
Marry Elizabeth Roberts

1891 Census : Class: RG12; Piece: 4412; Folio 3; Page 5;
Aberdare Road, Llanwonno, Blaenllechan ( pontypridd ), Glamorgan,
Lodging with Brother Richard Occupation : Coal Mine Labourer

dec 1895 Hugh Married Sarah Ann Jones Merthyr Tydfil age 26 ( occupation Collier )H

UGH : 1901 & 1911 Living with Wife Sarah and children
shown on his daughters Marriage Cert jan 1940 as Hugh John Hughes ( Deceased ) Occupation Colliery Surface Labourer.

Hugh died in Jan 1918 King Edward Hospital Cardiff ( i have cert and is 100% correct . was living in Tylorstown at time of death Shown as aged 45 .


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

there is no record of Hugh's Mother Alice with Robert Wynne Hughes on any census and no marriage .
Alice is showing as unmarried on 1871 with one son ( Richard ) and living with her widowed father, She then goes on to have another son (Hugh) with Robert Wynne Hughes .

I have tried tracking the father (Robert Wynne Hughes ) Through Richards Birth cert .... there were 2 Richard Hughes Born in Liverpool sept and Dec 1867, I have Both certs and neither show mother Alice or father Robert !!!

[simone]

Hi

What about this chap.. born in Nevin, the reg district for Pwhelli where Alice grew up and lodging in Liverpool in 1871 Richard born in Liverpool in 1867.

RG10; Piece: 3792; Folio: 50; Page: 30
Name Age
Harriet Gidman 66
Thomas Gidman 29
Margaret Gidman 27
James Gidman 25
Susannah Gidman 23
Robert Wynne 28 clerk
Drew Stretch 25

surely a clerk could be a Custom's House Officer

there is also a frieght clerk/provision dealer living next door- (simialr sort of profession I would say perhaps they worked together/knew each other )

Simone x

[Hilary]

If I understand correctly Alice had two illegitimate children who said at their marriages their father was called Robert Wynne Hughes. You have no birth certificate for Richard. Do you have Hugh's? if not I would suggest this is his birth regstration September Q 1874 Pwllheli volume 11b page 456. According to freebmd Ederyn was in this district.

I imagine there will be no father shown on the certificate but I could be wrong. Have you tried finding baptisms for the children? Sometimes the minister puts the father's name.

However I am inclined to think the name may be made up and that the 2 boys may have had different fathers. I would think that the Wynne in the older boy is probably significant.

Hilary
Ed Officer

[simone]

This could be that Robert Wynne in 1881,,, 29 Chatsworth St, Liverpool
RG11; Piece: 3703; Folio: 5; Page: 3


Robert W. Wynne 38 retired stone merchant, b Nevin, Carnarvonshire
Ellen Wynne 39 b Anglesey

marriage at Walton Breck, Holy Trinity in 1874 - Robert W Wynne/ Ellen Owen

obviously done ok for himself if now retired

maybe he and Alice went to Liverpool together for work, or perhaps they knew each other already and as he was already in Liverpool she felt she could go there for work, maybe later she had to go back home for help after having Richard and then they may have drifted apart

using Tom Nunamker census thingy

another possible birth reg for Richard

Richard Hughes
Year of Registration: 1868
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 536

can't see a Richard Wynne that fits

so possibly father was Robert Wynne and as she is not married and so still using maiden name Hughes, then that is why dad is named as as Robert Wynne Hughes couldn't prove it though could we without Robert Wynne named on birth/baptism

Simone x

[dickiesam]

Having read the posts on the Rootschat forum and here I am also inclined to to the notion that Robert Wynne Hughes may not have existed. She had two children out of wedlock and in a small Welsh community of that time would have needed some respectability in a name for her children and a good respectable occupation for their father. I've a feeling there's a dead end there as far as the father of son Hugh is concerned.

Dickiesam

[MaryA]

using Tom Nunamker census thingy
Simone x

I haven't a clue what you mean but it sure gave me a smile

[dickiesam]

using Tom Nunamker census thingy
Simone x

I haven't a clue what you mean but it sure gave me a smile

Morning Mary,
Made me smile too! haven't heard/used the word 'thingy' for yonks!

I think she means this: http://www.toshop.com/censuscalc.cfm

And there's interesting stuff on the Home page: http://www.toshop.com/

Brian

[simone]

yes that's the one Brian

Mary, thought everyone knew about Tom's thingy

Simone x

[MaryA]

I've seen the same thing on other sites, none as much fun as yours sounded though

[dickiesam]

Tom's thingy!

My g.father had one of those but we don't talk about it!
Brian

[Glenys]

I think the significant point here is that the father of a child born to an unmarried mother could not be named (by the mother) in the birth register if he did not attend at the registration and sign the register at the same time as the mother.

By the time the child marries he would presume that the man who has lived with his mother for a number of years would be his father and would tell the minister/priest that person's name when asked on the completion of his marriage entry and certificate. Alternatively his mother may have told him who she wanted him to think his father was.

As regards the birth taking place in one place and being registered in another - again this should not have happened. There is a provision to give the details of a birth in one district by declaration which are then sent to the birth district for inclusion in the correct register.