ROMEO STREET KIRKDALE

[christine]

Hi, just joined today so im a novice !
I am researching my husbands G.FATHER John Brown ( great name lol)
I have found his war records ,he died in France in April 1917.
I have his marriage cert married to Margaret Martland on MAY 11TH 1902
in St Mary,s Walton -on-the hill aged 19yrs.
He was born 1883 in Liverpool,thats definite but thats all we know.,for sure.I was told he has a brother William who was in the army with him but survived but not 100% sure
John was not on 1901 census I think I found him on a barge ?? and on wedding cert it does state mariner but were do I GO FROM HERE !!!!
I am going through 1881 cenus and found a brown family with a farther John Brown ,which is correct and a son John aged 1 address 4 Romeo street kirkdale Lverpool but checking 1871 census street does not exsist
can any help me, im lost Christine

[Gray]

Hi Christine & welcome to the forum, the members are great & always there to help.

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... laz/E8.htm


Have a look at this great site..click on the link. Blue, one of our members gave us this a while back & it's great to use.
Romeo Street Kirkdale is on it.



Gray

[christine]

Thank you so much for that link and your speedy reply,I can see the street now many thanks
I am going to enjoy this friendly group thank you
CHRISTINE

[Gray]

Hi again Christine,

There is this possibility for 1901 census

RG13 Piece 317 Folio 100 (No page No.)

John Brown born 1883 (aged 18 born Liverpool occ: OS (I presume this is Ordinary Seaman)

Liverpool is transcribed as LDAPOAT but says Liverpool on the image.

Census address:

Shadwell Basin London Dock

Vessel Name: Torgorm?

Gray

[dickiesam]

Hello Christine,
Re:

address 4 Romeo Street, Kirkdale, Liverpool but checking 1871 census street does not exist.

Don't be mislead if the street name doesn't show up in an address search in a census. Not all streets were abstracted, listed and transcribed into a searchable database in all censuses. For instance, you could have a street OK in the 1861 but it is missing in 1871, only for it to reappear in 1881 and disappear again in 1891. Some streets, especially 'minor' ones are not listed in a searchable database for any census.

Dickiesam

[christine]

Hi Thank you for that information ,that is very helpful for now and future searches
Many thanks Christine

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Might I suggest that when requesting help you give all the information you have - perhaps you could let us have the full details from John's marriage certificate - ie if his father's occupation was Mariner at the time, which church, witnesses etc.

Here is the 1881 census to assist others, and I note the father's birthplace with interest.

4 Romeo Street, Kirkdale Lancashire - all except the father were born Liverpool
John Brown Head M 40 Mariner America
Mary A wife M 32
Cecilia M daur 12 Scholar
Margaret A daur 10 "
Annie M daur 6
Florence B daur 4
John son 1
RG11; Piece: 3683; Folio: 107; Page: 12

With the help of Cecilia I believe this would be your family in 1871.

40 Paul Street, Howard Street, Liverpool
Cecilia Fishwick Head W 50 Cart Owner Lancashire Billinge
Mary Ann Brown daur M 21 Lancashire Liverpool
Elizabeth Fishwick daur Unm 16 " "
William Fishwick son 10 Scholar " "
William Hollis Lodger 19 Carter " "
Richard McGorry Lodger Unm 47 Ireland
Cecilia Brown Granddaur 1 Lancashire Liverpool
RG10; Piece: 3768; Folio: 61; Page: 14

[MaryA]

I can take you a further two censuses back - 1861 search for surname Frederick - I've sent in an amendment. The boarder, Mary Ann Brown, is interesting, wonder if she is any relation to your John's father?

44 Paul Street, Howard Street, Liverpool
William Fishwick Head M 48 Cart Owner (employing 2 men) Lancashire Dalton
Cicelia Wife M 42 Lancashire Billinge
Margaret daur 19 Scholar " Rainford
Mary Ann daur 17 " " Liverpool
Elizabeth " 7 " " "
William son 11 months Infant " "
Thomas Kershaw Boarder 49 Cotton Porter Aintree Liverpool
Mary Ann Brown Boarder 22 Dressmaker Liverpool
John Hesketh 40 Carter Rainford
RG9; Piece: 2661; Folio: 34; Page: 7

1851
16 House No. 1 Court Paul Street, Howard Street, Liverpool
William Fishwick Head M 39 Cart owner Lancashire Dalton
Cecily Wife 32 Lancashire Billinge
Margaret daur 9 " Rainford
Mary Ann daur 2 " Liverpool
Henry Brother 36 Carter Journeyman Lancashire Upholland
Richard Bulmer Lodger 28 " " " Ince Blundell
HO107; Piece: 2178; Folio: 554; Page: 26

For 1841 you are looking probably in the Rainford area when Margaret may or may not have been born since her age varies a bit.

[MaryA]

Although the IGI has entries for the birth of Margaret Fishwick, these are "user submitted entries" and give no place of baptism so have not been extracted from any parish registers.

Luckily there is an extracted entry for the marriage of William Fishwick and Cicely Bolton 14 December 1840 Saint Helens, Lancashire - you should check the original register, which you should find on microfilm at the St Helens Library. This parish might prove useful for a baptism for Margaret.

[christine]

Hi Mary Thank you for your reply.Im new to this lol but have had great help up to now from you all especially Gray.Here is what I know
JOHN BROWN Married Margaret Martland May 11th 1902 at St Marys Walton on the Hill aged 19years Mariner 130 Towson street liverpool
father John Brown labourer
witness Alfred bird Agnus Florance Coulson
On the 1901 census we think he was on the SS TORGORM in Shadwell Basin wapping London ,thanks to Gray .
He and Margaret had 6 children,(same as me lol)
Harold 1902 Bonnie francis 1906 Isabella 1908 John albert 1911 Fanny 1912 Hilda 1914 ( husbands mum) they all lived in Barlow building kirkdale
on 1911 census.
What I am looking for is his birth cert,and even if I send for all John browns with father John how will I know which is his lol
Sorry to sound a bit thick lol
any ideas would be great ,up till 1.30 am this morning going through John Browns.I have had to work backwards so know a lot after marriage and even have war records ,he was killed in France but would love to find out about younger days .He was born 1883 ? but 2 years difference on death cert from France
Thank you all for interest
Christine

[dickiesam]

Hi Christine,
If the family that MaryA found in 1881 is the right one, the parents are not likely to have made a big error in the age of the youngest child John [shown as 1 year]. So assuming he was born between Jan 1879 and Dec 1880 and searching FreeBMD in Liverpool, Toxteth Park and West Derby, to the exclusion of anywhere else in Lancashire, there are only 10 John Browns without a middle initial. 4 were born in 1879 and 6 in 1880.

If you decide to get birth certs I suggest starting with the early 1980 births [March qtr, West Derby, and go for one of the two shown and then the Liverpool one if they are both wrong], followed by the late 1879s. I believe that the GRO, despite the recent price increase, will conduct a search to confirm the father's name before simply issuing the cert if you specify that this be done in your application. That should narrow down the search, and cost, considerably.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp

Dickiesam

[MaryA]

The Liverpool Register Office is also helpful that way and will do a search for your criteria, similar price http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/registrars_ ... /index.asp

[Gray]

Hi All,


Told Christine there was 'Genius' on here & to wait until they got going!!!

I go to town for my Sunday 'kippers' Manx, from the market, and Mary & DS have it sorted.

Grayx

[MaryA]

I think we need to start all over again.

[christine]

Hi All,
If on Johns wedding cert 1902 states he,s 19 then his birthdate is 1883
on army records he died in 1917 april aged 34 years so this bears this out
so I dont think Im out of the woods yet
Afew weeks ago I sent for 4 birth cert covering march to dec 1883 but no joy as none of them had fathers as John so I,m afraid I will have to plod on lol
I have got 6 lots to send for 2 jan-march 1 april june 1uly -sept and 2 oct-dec all 1882 incase he was born then
Thank you all for assisting me and I will keep you informed and also keep all info as it could all relate to the Brown family
Thanks Christine

[MaryA]

With the benefit of the marriage certificate information - John Brown married from 130 Towson Street in 1902, to find a Brown family at the same address in 1901 but not connected, would be too much coincidence surely?

From the 1901 census
130 Towson Street, North Everton, Liverpool
Keyiza Brown Wife M 40 Lancashire Liverpool
Florrie daur 8 " "
Owen Hugh Parry Boarder S 30 Whitesmith Wales
RG13; Piece: 3478; Folio: 118; Page: 52.

1891
11 Cresswell Street, Everton, Lancashire
Alex Brown Head M 36 Mariner Sussex Brighton
Kezia Wife M 31 Lancashire Liverpool
Margaret H daur 13 Scholar " "
Anne W " 12 " " "
John H Smith Nephew 16 Messenger " "
Alex McCracken Lodger S 20 Shopman Scotland Glasgow
RG12; Piece: 2947; Folio 42; Page 15

Could Alex be John's uncle?

[MaryA]

I may still be on the wrong track but still looking.

From the 1911 census INDEX I have Kerzia age 56, Alexander age 56 (entering the birthplace of Brighton confirms his birthplace) and Florence age 17.

Have you found your John with wife Margaret on the 1911 census and are there any other relatives living with them? No matter I have them and John's age is given as 30 on that so birth date 1880/1881.

[MaryA]

I would be interested to see the marriage details for the following

Alexander Brown to Kezia Smith Kirkdale, St. Mary Q3 1885 W. Derby 8b 661

[MaryA]

and then I would be interested to see the marriage details for
John Smith to Kezia Swinburn Edge Hill, St. Mary Q4 1880 8b 479

and whose child John H Smith born approximately 1876 is and how he fits into the picture. Could he have been brought up by the Browns?

[christine]

Hi Mary
Yes 1911 cenus puts john with Margaret married 10 yrs dock labour with 4 of his 6 children which is correct.They were living at 2 Barlow buildings
kirkdale liverpool

In answer to Alexander Brown living at Towson Street I have his marriage cert in front of me
married kezia smith widow on 5th July 1885 alex was widower mariner and his father was William brown stone maker
keyzia was formally Swinburn 5th dec 1858 born
even got a birth cert of their daughter florrie born in 115 Everton Terr in 1893 but didnt want to go off on a tangent till I find John Brown birth cert.
Its funny really I have 2 lovely photos of him,one in the Liverpool Pals and one of him younger but he wont give up his birth day lol
Anyway I plod on
thanks you for your time and help
best wishes Christine