Dead end?

[Beebee]

I know a lot about one side of my family back to 1718 (Hugenots)
In fact a lot olf the docs I have are in French...so far so good. the French side married into the Bethell side some time in the mid 19thc. I have my grandfather who married twice, not sure where he is buried.
His father's name was William James Bethell (fisherman) and he married a Sarah Ann Emery on 20th April 1884. This is where it fades out somewhat. The fisherman's father's name was also William James Bethell (ship's carpenter). Sarah's father was one William Emery (labourer)
I would appreciate any info on those I have underlined...I can't seem to find anything on them.
I am assured that the name Bethell is Welsh, a corruption of ab ithell?
Many thanks in advance
Beebee

[dickiesam]

Hi Beebee,

His father's name was William James Bethell (fisherman) and he married a Sarah Ann Emery on 20th April 1884. This is where it fades out somewhat.

Not sure whether the track fades looking forwards or back... Going forward, the only Lancashire William and Sarah Bethell in 1891 are here, but he's not a fisherman (anymore?):
BETHEL, William - 31 - 1860 - Dock Labourer - Liverpool.
BETHEL, Sarah - Wife - 30 - 1861 - Liverpool.
BETHEL, James - Son - 5 - 1886 - Liverpool.
BETHEL, George - Son - 3 - 1888 - Liverpool.
BETHEL, Ernest - Son - 1 - 1890 - Liverpool.
Address: 28 Lamport Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
RG12 / Piece: 2925 / Folio: 83 / Page: 30.

You would need a birth cert for one of the children to check Sarah's maiden name but it may not be necessary because this would appear to be the same family on 1901..
BETHELL, William James - 39 - 1862 - Dock Labourer - Liverpool.
BETHELL, Sarah A - Wife - 44 - 1857 - Liverpool.
BETHELL, James - Son - Single - 16 - 1885 - Boiler Scaler Ship - Liverpool.
BETHELL, George - Son - 13 - 1888 - Liverpool.
BETHELL, Ernest - Son - 11 - 1890 - Liverpool.
BETHELL, William - Son - 7 - 1894 - Liverpool.
Address: 27 Northumberland Buildings, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
RG13 / Piece: 3428 / Folio: 11 / Page:13

The name Bethell has a religious origin in that many chapels in Wales are Bethel Chapels. In Hebrew the word means House of God. The origin as Ap Ithel [son of generous Lord] can also be taken as religious. http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Bethel.html

In 1881 there's a Sarah A Emery here but her place of birth is shown as Wallasey in Cheshire and her YoB is different. It could be the same person as in 1891 because places and dates of birth can vary.
EMERY, Sarah A - Visitor - Single - 23 - 1858 - General Servant - Wallasey, Cheshire.
RG11 / Piece: 3680 / Folio: 74 / Page: 27.
Address: 42 Tillard St, Kirkdale, Lancashire.

But the only Sarah Anne Emery born in Cheshire between 1855 and 1865 is here:
Births Mar 1863: EMERY, Sarah Ann - Nantwich - 8a - 308.

Still looking for William Bethel in 1881 and earlier...

Dickiesam

[MaryA]

Could you please give the other details from the marriage certificate - ie which church, addresses, witnesses etc.

[dickiesam]

To make searches more difficult it seems that Bethell and Bithell were more or less interchangeable...

Still looking for William Bethel in 1881 and earlier...

There are only two William James Bethell births [all counties] between 1857 and 1863; one in Middlesex and the other in Lancashire:
Births Sep 1860: BETHELL, William James - W Derby - 8b - 273.

However, the only matching William in the 1861 is here in Cheshire with his mother Martha, a fisherman's wife..
BETHELL, Martha - Wife - 23 - 1838 - Fisherman's Wife - Hoose, Cheshire.
BETHELL, William - Son - 1 - 1860 - Hoose, Cheshire.
Address: 12, Village, Hoose, Cheshire.
RG09 / Piece: 2638 / Folio: 72 / Page: 5
NOTE: The parish of Hoose on the Wirral became incorporated into West Kirby/Hoylake.

There's a marriage that links up with a Martha B in 1871..
Marriages Dec 1858:
BETHELL, John - Wirral - 8a - 666.
Bird, Martha - Wirral - 8a - 666.

And in 1871 [with a mistranscribed name], but William isn't here....
BITHELL, John - Head - 35 - 1836 - Cheshire.
BITHELL, Martha - Wife - 34 - 1837 - Cheshire.
BITHELL, Kathrine E - Dtr - 8 - 1863 - Cheshire.
BITHELL, Anne E - Dtr - 6 - 1865 - Cheshire.
BITHELL, Francis J - Dtr - 4 - 1867 - Cheshire.
BITHELL, Benjiman - Son - 1 - 1870 - Cheshire.
Address: Market Street, Hoose, Wirral, Cheshire.
RG10 / Piece: 3743 / Folio: 99 / Page: 12

William appears to be here with his maternal g.father, James Bird, and uncle and aunt [? - muddy waters?]...
BIRD, James - Head - 78 - 1793 - Cheshire.
BITHELL [?], Mary - Dtr - 45 - 1826 - Cheshire.
BITHELL [?], Thomas - Son-In-Law - 35 - 1836 - Cheshire.
BITHELL [?], William - Grandson - 11 - 1860 - Cheshire.
Plus several other children....
Address: Stanacres, Raby, Wirral, Cheshire.
RG10 / Piece: 3739 / Folio: 93 / Page: 24

Marriages Jun 1856:
BIRD , Mary - Wirral - 8a - 489.
BITHELL, Thomas - Wirral - 8a - 489.

I think you need certs for the 1860 birth of William J and the 1858 marriage of John and Martha.

Dickiesam

[Beebee]

You have been so busy on my behalf, I am gratefull to you.

If there were not so many William James Bethells in my family it would be so much easier...but the little devils are everywhere.
The earliest WJ Bethell is a boy, born on the 25th of August 1860 at 1 Pottery Rock Toxteth. His father is also WJ Bethell. His mother is Jane Bethell formerly Powell. The father is a journeyman shipwright.
In 1885 a WJ Bethell is born to, yep you guessed it! a WJ Bethell, fisherman. The mother is Sarah Ann Bethell formerly Emery. In 1887 the above couple had another boy called George (I think he was my grandfather)

In 1910 a WJ Bethell had a son called WJ Bethell, no surprise there then!
The mother was Martha Jane Bethell, formerly Rycroft...this couple again had a boy in 1915, this one they called Ernest
I have to discount the Bethells of cheshire because I know for a certainty that the Bethell tribe never ventured out of Liverpool untill the 1940s and that was because they started to be soldiers and married girls local to their postings at the time.
The info you have given me is wonderful and I need time to take it in and work things out.
Once again thank you so much for your efforts.
Beebee

'The name Bethell has a religious origin in that many chapels in Wales are Bethel Chapels. In Hebrew the word means House of God. The origin as Ap Ithel [son of generous Lord] can also be taken as religious. http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Bethel.html '

PS: A quick PS on the name meaning from Dickiesam. Ap ithell was a Welsh cheiftain apparently? You are dead right about the religious association with the name but Bethell has a differnt origin to Bethel, this Bethel as you rightly point out means House of God and reference to it can be found in Genesis. Beth meaning house and el meaning Eloi the greek for God.
BB

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Your point about the Cheshire Bethells is taken so I looked for a marriage of William J Bethell to Jane Powell. The only Powell to a possible Bethell is this one...
Marriages Jun 1856:
Bethell, James - W. Derby - 8b - 678.
Powell, Jane - W Derby - 8b - 678.

Looked for William J and Jane Bethell with a son William in 1861 without success. But did find a James and Jane Bethell with a son James.
BETHELL, James - Married - 26 - 1835 - Ship's Carpenter - Liverpool.
BETHELL, Jane - Wife - 27 - 1834 - Denbigh, Wales.
BETHELL, James - Son - 7 mths - 1860 - Liverpool.
Address: 23 The Potteries, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
RG09 / Piece:2705 / Folio:138 / Page:47

So did William James become plain James together with his son? Bit of a puzzle here! But in 1871, James is still James but son James is now William!
BETHELL, James - 38 - 1833 - Ship's carpenter - Liverpool.
BETHELL, Jane - Wife - 37 - 1834 - Liverpool.
BETHELL, William - Son - 11 - 1860 - Liverpool.
BETHELL, Mary - Dtr - 9 - 1862 - Liverpool.
BETHELL, Esther ? - Dtr - 3 - 1868 - Liverpool.
BETHELL, Elizabeth - Dtr - 0 - 1871 - Liverpool.
Address: Gore Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
RG10 / Piece:3795 / Folio:104 / Page:41

Is it possible that Jane has died by 1881? Because the only James Bethell, shipwright, is apparently married [?] to an Esther, 15 years his junior, here: RG11 / Piece:3639 / Folio:26 / Page:46

Deaths Sep 1875: Bethell, Jane - 43 - W. Derby - 8b - 188.

Dickiesam

[Beebee]

Dickiesam you are a goldmine of information...I have just rang my sister and she confirms a William J marrying a Jane Powell in West Derby.
There is a village on the outskirts of L/pool called West Derby but isn't there a resistration district called West Derby? Other stuff is falling into place as well. Many thanks.
Beebee

[Hilary]

According to www.lancashirebmd.org.uk Jane Powell and James Bethell married at St John the Baptist Toxteth Park in 1856. This would then have been in West Derby Registration district.

You might find it useful to just use the above site and find all the Bethell marriages some may very well be yours!!

Hilary
Ed Officer

[MaryA]

You will find that the West Derby registration district covered a large area of Liverpool and the surrounding areas, you might find this page useful.

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/dist ... derby.html

[dickiesam]

Dickiesam you are a goldmine of information...I have just rang my sister and she confirms a William J marrying a Jane Powell in West Derby.
There is a village on the outskirts of L/pool called West Derby but isn't there a resistration district called West Derby? Other stuff is falling into place as well. Many thanks.
Beebee

Hi,
Our Education Officer and MaryA have responded to your query about West Derby. The registration districts of Liverpool, West Derby and Toxteth all covered particular areas of Liverpool although Toxteth [Park] didn't start until 1881. You will find the dates that the three districts existed on FreeBMD's search page in the Districts drop-down menu window.

Since your sister 'confirms' a William J Bethell marrying Jane Powell in 1856 I assume she has the marriage certificate? I ask because the information from the GRO marriage index differs as to his forename.

Finally, where do we go from here?

Dickiesam