Winwick Hospital

[rusty2727]

Hoping some one on this forum can help me out, im trying to find out information on my great great grandmother who was a inmate at Winwick asylum i dont have any concrete dates as yet, but would be from around the first world war (1914) to maybe 1930's.
Her name was Harriet Hughes.

Any info would be greatfully received

Kind regards

Russ

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

The National Archives Hospital Records Database gives details about Winwick Hospital and it's records.

It is likely that you will need to obtain a letter of permission from the Regional or District Health Authority before you would be allowed sight of any documents, however it may be that the 100 years enclosure is in force and you may still not be allowed to view them.

Whatever Records are in existence appear to be held at Cheshire and Chester Archives

[Tina]

Hi Russ and a warm welcome.
I'm just about to clock off & will leave you in the capable hands of the morning crew!
Please can you give a birth year for Harriet (by the way the name of my Aussie granddee..)
Tina

[rusty2727]

Hi Russ and a warm welcome.
I'm just about to clock off & will leave you in the capable hands of the morning crew!
Please can you give a birth year for Harriet (by the way the name of my Aussie granddee..)
Tina

Hi Mary,

Thanks for that info, I have looked on the National Archive but belive there is no information of inmates which is understandable.
We just dont no what happend to this lady, its such a shame, we dont even no when she died or where she's buried, all seams to be such a secret at the time.

Hi Tina, the year of birth i belive was 1866 an Hughes was her married name...she was previously Wright.

[Tina]

Hi Russ and thanks for reply.
There are a couple of possibles in a certain census both living in Warrington but their ages differ slightly.
Do you know if Harriet had a middle name at all?
Also do you have her in 1901 census?
Thank you
Tina

[Tina]

Me again
Free BMD have a death in 1928 Warrington aged 59yrs
birth 1869 circa.
This is close to the birth year for a Harriet as mentioned previous email.
If she died in an Institution, her correct age could be guess work.

Tina

[MaryA]

I think you have to take a punt and get the death certificate and see where the death was registered and by whom. If you have the right one at least you then have a definite date to start you off looking for a burial.

Whatever Records are in existence appear to be held at Cheshire and Chester Archives

Perhaps you could contact them and see what information they are able to advise you is in the records.

[rusty2727]

Morning ladies!:D

Hiya Tina, this could be my lady, but now im just not sure!
My Auntie has done a family tree on Genes Reunited and has her DOB as c1866 death c1913? (what does the C mean?, is that an estimate year?)
Her father is down as John Wright and her mother as Harriet Metge.

I think im out my depth here!!

Thanks Mary, think once ive nailed i have the right Harriet then the death cert will have to be the next move!...i did read somewhere that if she did die in Winwick then there may only be a mass grave now, and if your lucky there maybe some kind of marker with a name. Kind of sad really!

Russ

[MaryA]

If your auntie is older than you she may well have more information and perhaps you should have a talk and discover what she knows, especially since her estimated date of death (yes C = circa) is considerably different from your original thoughts.

Having checked the death indexes for +/- 2 years either side of 1913 I can say that I can find no entry for a Harriet Hughes with a birthdate close to 1866.

It is quite possible that she may have been buried in a general or public grave, not quite what I would have called a "mass" grave, but there may be up to half a dozen burials in the same plot, and probably no marker/headstone, unless the family made the arrangements, but there should be a register of the burial.

[rusty2727]

Sorry Tina missed your first post!!

We think her middle initial is M according to the 1881 cencus.
I'll have to get back to you on the 1901 cencus, i spoke to my aunt and she doesnt think she was on it, but she's going to have another look.

Also the 1866 i have been told was indeed a rough estimate year of birth!

This isn't easy is it!

[rusty2727]

Hi Mary,

Yes my auntie is older im only a young pup at the tender age of 38! my aunt is 60!...and only has the information on Harriet she has looked up off the internet, she's going to email me this today.
My nana Harriets grandaughter is actually with me now, but she doent no anything about her nan apart from what her mum told her as a child, which was she was in the asylum znd that why she was raised by a relative, im trying to find out at what point she was sent to live with this relative as it would give a indication as to when she went into Winwick.
It's possible although waiting confirmation her Harriets daughter Gladys was living at 10,Dorrell St, West Derby. this wasnt with Harriet her mum.

[MaryA]

Perhaps it would be easier to begin with facts.

Without giving any details of LIVING people on the forum, if Harriet's grand-daughter knows the names of her parents we could possible discover a date of marriage for them. Working backwards from that it might be possible to discover their parents - ie Hughes and Harriet Wright and an approximate date of their marriage.

I am unable to find a marriage for them on LancashireBMD within the expected dates. Once their marriage has been discovered you will then be able to order the certificate which will give you their ages, addresses, father's names and occupations and witnesses who might be related.

I don't see a marriage with those names anywhere in the country.

[rusty2727]

Hi Mary,

I dont have any marriage details to hand, im hoping to get these if possible by tomorrow.
But i do have names of parents ect and dates of births, give or take a year or two.

So, my nana's mum is:

Gladys Hughes (1897 to 1976) married to Sindney Mcilvenna (1885 to 1949)

then the harriette im looking for:
Harriette Wright (c1866 to c1913?) to John Hughes (c1857)

Her parents were:

John Wright (c1835) married to Harriett Metge (c1847)

John Wrights father was a George Wright (c1805), i have no mother. and
Harriett Metge parents were, James Metge (c1817 to 1878) and Sarah Hobbs (c1820)

This really is a tricky one, we no Gladys Hughes had a older brother John Hughes (c1883) and a younger sister by one year Jane Hughes (c1898)
Gladys never new her brother and sister so im guessing the father dies, Harriette at some point is admited to Winwick and the children split up and sent to different homes, we think Gladys was sent to live with her fathers (John Hughes) sister, i have no name for the sister.

I hope you can undersand that Mary? if you can your a better person than me!

[MaryA]

The thing is that in our hobby "give or take a year or two" would mean the difference between one person and another, and you could end up following completely the wrong family. You have to work on facts.

Now the information Tina was working on presumed that the family were living in the Warrington area, whereas the marriage between

Sydney C Mcilvenna and Gladys Hughes took place in Liverpool - details if you need them are Q4 1919 West Derby 8b 1244

You have only estimated details for Harriet/te Wright and these don't fit any facts at present.

It's possible although waiting confirmation her Harriets daughter Gladys was living at 10,Dorrell St, West Derby. this wasnt with Harriet her mum.

I had assumed, since you gave no date for this, that the above would have been either when she married or at some time within living memory, but I find that this in fact from the 1901 census and conflicts your information "wasnt with Harriet her mum".

1901 10 Darrell Street, West Derby, Lancashire
John Hughes Head M 43 Joiner Carpenter Holyhead Anglesea
Harriette Wife M 39 Dyserth Flint
John 17 Liverpool
Gladys daur 3 1/2 Liverpool
Jane daur 2 Liverpool
RG13; Piece: 3493; Folio: 59; Page: 21

We now have a totally different place of birth that we had expected for Harriet/te.

Is your assumption that the three children were split up from this? since I would consider John to be old enough to have been able to look after himself if necessary shortly after this age, or do you know for certain of the existence of this brother?

Do you have Gladys's birth certificate and has Harriette's maiden name been confirmed on it?

Do you have Gladys's marriage certificate and what was the name AND occupation of her father on this? who were the witnesses, possibly relatives? what were the addresses on it?

These are the questions that need to be answered to confirm that this family found on the 1901 census is indeed the correct one. This Harriette has an approximate birthdate of 1862.

If we were to assume that the 1901 census entry was correct, the 1891 census would confirm that her birthdate was nearer 1862/61 than later.

37 Whittier Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
John Hughes Head M 30 Joiner Anglesey North Wales
Harriet Wife M 30 Flint N Wales
John son 7 Scholar Liverpool
RG12; Piece: 2938; Folio 102; Page 33

[MaryA]

From the IGI

John Hughes Birth: 16 March 1884
Christening: 10 August 1884 St Peter's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father John Hughes - Mother Harriett

Gladys Hughes Birth: 11 October 1897
Christening: 21 November 1897 St Peter's C Of E, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father John Hughes - Mother Harriet Hughes

These are a extracted entries from the Parish Register and so fairly safe to assume that it is correct, although should be checked before accepting.

If you don't have Gladys's birth certificate then I'm suspecting that this would be a pretty safe bet for her birth and if it were me I would apply to the Liverpool Register Office for a copy of the birth certificate, giving the above date of birth and the parents names. This will confirm if you have her maiden name correct.

[rusty2727]

Yes i can confirm that the 11th October is Gladys bithday.

Also i had got some info wrong with regards to Harriette being with her parents at 10,Dorrell st. on the 1901 cencus.
Its actually the 1911 cencus when she is 13 that she is in a household of a Philip Jackson. 7 Hemingford St. Birkenhead.

I can also confirm that from my nan's memory that there is family connections with Flint and Anglesey.

I no my aunt has enquired with a family member about a birth cert. but as yet they haven't been able to find it and was going to look into this.

My aunt is virtually 100% positive we are on the right family line with regards to the names. She has just emailed me a copy of the death register for Harriette for october to december 1913 it has her as Harriette Hughes age 64, Warrington. volume 8c page 174

[Hilary]

I suggest you purchase the birth certificate of Gladys as Mary has suggested and also the death certificate for Harriette your aunt has found the registration for.

I also suggest you hunt for Harriette in the 1911 census as she must be there somewhere. If the death certificate of Harriette shows she was in Winwick you then need to go down the avenue of investigating the records held at Cheshire Record Office as Mary said. As it's nearly 100 years they may be preparred to look at them on your behalf but you may have to prove your relationship to the person in question. Different places have different rules.

I would also suggest you look for both John and Jane in the 1911 census and for Harriette's husband.

Hilary
Ed Officer

[rusty2727]

Thanks for that Hilary,

Just a quick question, by the time the 1911 census came out and if Harriette was already a resident of Winwick would she still be listed on it?

[Hilary]

She should be listed wherever she was in the UK (Scotland not yet available). In older censuses sometimes people in institutions where listed by initial only but so far any I have found in institutions are listed with full names in the 1911.

Incidentally the death your aunt has found in 1913 for a Harriette Hughes aged 64 doed not tie in with the date of birth you are suggesting of between 1861 to 1866. I suggest you check the 1911 census for any Harriette Hughes living in the Warrington registration district as there could well be more than one. Your Harriette would only be in her late 40s early 50s in 1913.


Hilary
Ed Officer

[rusty2727]

Ive pretty much got Harriet as born 1862 now, which would make her 49 in 1911
Ive had a look at the Harriet Hughes on the 1911 census, even tried spelling Harriet several ways, there were some matches for the name and the year of birth, but none that would match the area she was living or would have been living around the time (liverpool or Merseyside areas).

I did notice after asking you if she would be listed on the 1911 census, that some were listed as in Institution? rather than Household, I take it Institution would be a place like Winwick?