Irish Records

[Blue70]

Can anyone tell me the mother's maiden name for the following birth. The mother was Godmother of my great grandfather on his baptism record and I'm wondering if she was a friend or a relation. If she is a relation it could help identify the county in Ireland where my Holland people came from. The O'Hares lived at Denison Street same as the Hollands and they were from County Cork:-

Owen O'Hare
8b 110
July/Aug/Sept
Liverpool
1872

Thanks,

Col

[MaryA]

I'm sorry Col but births cannot be looked up at the Record Office. Please see some guidance notes here http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=6937

The information that you have is for ordering the certificate online at http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

As the family were Irish they could well have been RC so the place to check is the nearest church to where they lived. The Record Search Pilot might be a good place to check for any Irish records, if you haven't already.

To request a look up you really need accurate details of where the event took place and as near as possible the date, ie the quarter of the year, as anybody volunteering to assist would be taking time from their own research and would want to get out a film, find the answer and then move on. It's preferable not to ask them to check a few different churches on the "off chance".

[Blue70]

Thanks for the information Mary the baptism record for this son will eventually appear on LHP so I'll wait until then to see what the maiden name was for Mary Ann O'Hare.

The church is likely to be St Mary RC, Highfield Street as that is where Mary Ann O'Hare was Godmother to Patrick Holland in 1879.

Col

[Hilary]

Another way to look at this would be to find Owen in the 1881 census that would give you his fatehr's name and mother's first name. Then find the father in the 1871 census. If you have a different mother's name there may well be a remarriage. Then look at www,lancashirebmd.org.uk www.freebmd.org.uk to see if you can find some possible marriages. I would also as they're RC check on www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk to see if the names you have give you a marriage or narrow your search down a bit. That way you with a bit of lucki will find the mother's maiden name.

Hilary
Ed Officer

[Blue70]

Hi Hilary

I have the O'Hares on the census in 1871 and 1881 at Denison Street and then in Bootle in 1891. The father is Peter and the mother is Mary Ann. They had three sons all born in Liverpool, Michael (1867), Patrick (1870) and Owen (1872). There's no record of a marriage in England and with Peter and Mary Ann both being from County Cork I would expect they married there.

LHP is working backwards on RC baptisms they're up to 1888 at the moment so I'll wait until they get back to 1872 to find out Mary Ann's maiden name. It's only a hunch that Mary Ann may be a relation it's probably more likely that she was just a neighbour they befriended and who helped them settle in Liverpool being Irish like the Hollands.

Regards,

Col

[Blue70]

At the moment I'm thinking my Hollands came from County Cork but there's also a possibility they came from Dublin City as I found a baptism record on the free Irish record site Irish Genealogy ie of a William Holland that could be my great, great grandfather:-

William John Holland

My genealogical holy grail is finding the marriage record of William Holland and Jane Grogan in Ireland. At the moment Irish Genealogy ie are my best hope as they are due to bring out County Cork records later this year and put up the rest of their Dublin City records.

Col

[dickiesam]

I see from the 1881 census that William was bn abt 1851 and Jane abt 1847. That means the earliest they could probably have married was in 1868 when William would have been 18-ish. On this pilot site there are quite few William Holland marriages including several in Cork between 1868 and 1880 but unfortunately the site does not yet cross-reference the spouses.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsea ... searchable

It might be a long-winded business but you could make a list of the much smaller number of Jane Grogan marriages in the period and try for make a match of place/qtr/year with a Holland marriage.

Dickiesam

[Blue70]

Hi Dickiesam

I've tried all the records available around the Internet and looked at all possibilities nothing matches up marriage-wise for Holland Grogan. I think they came from somewhere that doesn't have many records available at the moment.

PS:

William John Holland, most likely born in 1852 or 1853 considering all census information and age at death.

Jane Grogan, could have been born some time between 1847 and 1855 considering all census information and age at death.


Regards,

Col

[dickiesam]

Hi Col,
That URL I gave you is the pilot site, run by FamilySearch, of the digitised Irish GRO indexes. While it does have some marriage records from 1848, It has the civil registration of BMDs from 1864 to 1958. If William and Jane are not there, and they can't be found in FreeBMD, I suspect they weren't married. Possibly because one or the other was already married.

I have maternal g.parents and paternal g.g.parents, one couple Irish and RC, who had did not marry because the man had a previous marriage yet they had several children. I found their marriages eventually, 27 and 30 years respectively after their first child was born, and a year or two after the first spouse had died.

Dickiesam

[42aitch]

Hi Blue 70

I checked St Mary's Highfield Street for Owen O'Hare details as follows:

Owen O'Hare's baptism gives his dob as 28..8.1872 and bapt l.9.1872 to parents Peter O'Hare and Mary Ann Carroll. Sponsers were Arthur McCaffrey and Eliza Jennie? (Could be Caufields) The register was very hard to read at this point very faded

Hope this will help.

Eileen

[Blue70]

Thanks Eileen you're a star. So I now know Patrick's Godmother was Mary Ann O'Hare nee Carroll and she was a friend of the Hollands not a family member.

Hi Dickiesam that's an intriguing prospect about not being married. Are those records complete though surely there's a lot of marriage records that aren't available even as indexes? What about RC church records?

William and Jane's first son Patrick was born in December 1879 in Liverpool. The information I got from family was that they were on their way to America and Jane was ill while pregnant with Patrick. So they stopped off in Liverpool and ended up staying permanently. So I imagined I would find a marriage around 1877/78.

Col

[MaryA]

There are two sets of Birth, Marriage and Death indexes in the UK; the original indexes held by the local register offices and a secondary index created by the General Register Office compiled from the quarterly returns from the local offices.

In addition to this, each church would hold the PARISH register for the births, marriages and burials that took place in it's own parish, whether RC or C of E, or in this case C of Ireland.

So the Indexes are the collective records for England and Wales regardless of whether the ceremonies took place in a church, or which church, or a register office.

The same applies to Ireland and we are lucky that their indexes are available on the LDS pilot site.

If you find an entry that you need to order a certificate for, Germaine gave us the benefit of her own experience http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=7429

As an afterthought, I should have added that ministers in C of E churches were authorised to register a marriage, whereas RC priests were not, this is why, even now, a registrar must attend the church or a separate ceremony has to take place at the register office - hence the many entries on LancashireBMD for "Register Office or Registrar Attended", these marriages may have taken place in a Register Office or in a church which requred separate civil registration.

[Blue70]

Have people on here found ancestors on the Irish pilot site and has anyone else not found their ancestors? I just did a check on Peter O'Hare and Mary Ann Carroll and couldn't find them either. Their first son was born in Liverpool in 1867 and they definitely didn't marry in England but with it being close to the start of registration that included RCs (1864?) it may not be a good test of these indexes.

Edit: Registration for everyone in Ireland did start in 1864 when RC records were included amongst other sources. I found a bit of feedback on the Internet where some people have found ancestors and some people haven't and there are mixed views about how helpful the pilot is to researchers. I think it's a great resource personally and well done to the creators I can see it being a great help but only if you can find your people are on there.

Col

[Blue70]

The reference to the pilot being still under development in this link and the fact that it is called "An Index" rather than "The Index" makes me think that the index might be incomplete:-

https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Family ... ord_Search


Col

[Katie]

Peter O'Hare and Mary Ann Carroll were married in a Civil Marriage in Birkenhead in 1865.
Ref number BW/10/119

Search Cheshire BMD to obtain the application form

[Blue70]

Good find Katie I only checked Lancashire I forgot about across the river.

Col

[Blue70]

I've been in touch with another Holland descendent and she says her Grandad who was a Grandson of William & Jane always said they originally came from Cork. So it looks like County Cork rather than Dublin or anywhere else. It makes sense as there is little coverage of Cork on the Irish sites like IFHF. It also supports my theory that Patrick's Godmother Mary Ann O'Hare who was from County Cork shared a similar background to the Hollands. I'm still hoping to confirm it with records from Irish Genealogy ie later this year.

Col

[Blue70]

Another researcher has told me that they had found that there was a difference in content between the Irish Civil Registration records and parish records:-

"One has to remember at least 10% of records weren't registered.......the further you go back to 1864 the bigger the %. I have church records from a particular Parish from the 1890's and out of 5 records only 3 registered."


Blue