ROBERT BURNS b. approx 1850 LIVERPOOL ?

[Rosemary]

My Great Grandfather, a Robert Burns, believed born about 1850, gave his birthplace as "In the Parish of St Peters", Liverpool in the County of Lancashire, when he enlisted with the British Army on 4.11.1868, aged 17yrs and 11 months. (Unfortunately he also gave it as Dundee, Scotland on the 1891 census and when he married in Nova Scotia in 1879) I can't find him on the 1851 or 1861 but the 1871 and 1901 both say Liverpool (In 1881 he was in Malta). He went missing around 1901 so no date or place of death. Parents are believed to be a Henry and Sarah, and he had a Brother, Henry, who he gave as next of kin before marrying.

I have been looking for his Birth entry in the indexes for years and still come up against a blank wall.

Does anyone know what district "In the Parish of St Peters" means?

Any suggestions would be really helpful.

Many thanks,

Rosemary

[jan44]

Hi Rosemary,

Going by the date you have given when Robert enlisted in the army 1868 age 17 and 11 months, I have worked out that he may have been born late December 1851 and his birth may not have been registered until the following quarter jan-mar 1852. I have found this before when looking for my own family and was a bit stumped, until I realised that births had to be registered within 6 weeks of birth.

I found this.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Robert Burns
Name: Robert Burns
Year of Registration: 1852
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Liverpool (1837-1934)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 66

You could check with the GRO on the parents names if you order the cert, and it is the wrong one, they will refund part of your money.

Jan

[Rosemary]

Hi Jan,

Thanks for your reply. I do in fact have the Certificate that you mentioned - Robert Burns, b. 10th January, 1852. Unfortunately the parents were a John Burns and Alice Burns, (nee Jones).

This is a real mystery to me as I just can't seem to find him anywhere.

Thanks for your help.

Rosemary

[Hilary]

I have no idea what would information would have been given at his marriage in Novia Scotia could you perhaps post the infromation it contains. Does it give a father's name?

Also could you perhaps post the references for the census entries. Have you tried following his brother Henry? Does that help at all?

Hilary
Ed Officer

[Rosemary]

Hilary,

Thanks for your message.

Info on Marriage Slip from Nova Scotia:

Date and Place of Marriage: 2nd Sep 1879 - Garrison Chapel.
(This was in Halifax, Nova Scotia)
How Married: by Licence
Full name of Groom: Robert Burns
His age: 30 yrs
Where born: Dundee, Scotland (This is one of my discrepancies)
Parents' names: Henry & Sarah Burns
Their profession: Carpenter

It goes on to give details of his Bride

Yes, I have tried to find both Robert's Brother, Henry, and Father, Henry, but without success. Also tried finding his Mother, Sarah. This "Marriage Slip" is the only document I have that gives me the names of his parents. I have no other info about them. Brother's name was given as next of kin in Robert's Army Service Record, and crossed out when Robert married.

When Robert enlisted in the RA at Woolwich in Nov, 1868 (I have a copy of his Service Record from TNA at Kew) he gave his "Trade or Calling" as "Seaman".

Do you think we may be able to trace him from this occupation? Not sure how - could be a clue if he really was born in Liverpool.

As requested, details of the censuses:


1851 and 1861 census returns - cannot be found

1871
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1153; Folio: 68; Page: 5; GSU roll: 827792
(You will have to type in Robert Bevins in Ancestry. It comes up as Robert Burns on “Find my Past” which is how we found him)


1881 In Malta with the Royal Artillery – at present trying to find out about this census and whether it was actually taken in 1881 or not


1891
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 541; Folio 80; Page 35; GSU roll: 6095651.

1901
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 577; Folio: 94; Page: 19.

1911
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
2896 Reference:
RG14PN2896 RG78PN99 RD30 SD3 ED14 SN133

Only Robert’s Wife, Mary Jane Burns and family members on this. They have now moved from Hargor Road to Alabama Street, Plumstead. (Robert went missing sometime, we believe, between 31st March,1901 (he’s on the census) and 1906).

Hope the above info is of use and thanks again for trying to help.

Rosemary

[mapwoman]

Hi Rosemary

Have you looked for variations on the BURNS surname? I know of a family who were Burn, Byrne or Byrnes in 19thC Irish records, however their American descendants today all call themselves BURNS.

Just had a quick look on FreeBMD I found some births and a marriage that might be worth a closer look:

Mar qtr 1848 Robert BYRNES - Liverpool 20 361
Jun qtr 1849 Robert BYRNE - Liverpool 20 421
Sep qtr 1852 Robert BURN - W Derby 8b 281

And two Henry Byrne births both Liverpool, one Sep 1848 (20 386) the other June 1851 (20 468)

A marriage for Henry Byrnes Dec 1846 Liverpool 20 153 one of the possible brides for him is a Sarah Molyneux.

And maybe Robert was flustered on his wedding day, misunderstood the question and gave his father's place of birth instead of his own.

Good luck
Ann

[Rosemary]

Hi Ann,

Thanks you for your reply.

Yes, I have tried looking at variations in spelling and I also found the first one on your list., way back in 2008. i.e

Mar qtr 1848 Robert BYRNES Liverpool 20 361.

I wrote to the Liverpool Register Office to ask if they could look this up for me, but unfortunately it wasn't the right one and they very kindly returned my cheque.

I have today just emailed them to see if they are still prepared to check entries in the register. I have a feeling they are now trying to get people to go to the GRO at Southport as I know it is a very time consuming job for them. Fingers crossed that they CAN look the other ones up on your list for me. Thank you for taking the time to find them.

I have this "feeling" about him being a "Seaman" before enlisting with the Army at WOOLWICH. I seem to remember seeing somewhere that a lad could become a Seaman at the age of either 14 or 16. I'm at present trying to find out more. He could have lied about his age when he joined up and may not have been 17yrs and 11 months in Nov, 1868. Seems strange that he was so precise, but maybe thats how they did it in those days and didn't give actual birth dates. Maybe he didn't know it! I wonder what made him to go to Woolwich? Perhaps that was the only place, then, where he could join up.

This is really baffling me.

Rosemary

[Katie]

Hi

The Marriage of Henry Byrnes that took place in Dec quarter was in St Peters and he married a Mary Kelly.

[Rosemary]

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for your info re: the Dec Qtr marriage of Henry Byrnes being to a Mary Kelly. It'll save me sending off for the Cert.

I believe you tried to help me several years ago when I came to Liverpool and visited the Record Office there. We met up with Veronica. As you can see, I still haven't found him!

Hope you are well, and with best wishes,

Rosemary

[Katie]

Hi Rosemary.

Yes I did help. Seamans records are at Kew, however these only go up to 1855, so the only way to find seamen is by Crew list's.

[Katie]

Hi Rosemary

I Have found this marriage could be something or nothing any way here are the details.

Christ Church Hunter Street

20th Noveber 1871

Henry Burns-full age-bachelor-Mariner-5 Wilton Street-Father Henry Burns-Painter

Lucy Ann Farrelly-full age-Spinster-5 Wilton STreet-Thomas Farrelly

Wit: William Henry Brooks and Elizabeth Gill Farrelly

[jan44]

I don't know if this will help or not but I found this on the 1871 census.

RG10 3792 folio 88 page 36 (can't make out street name)

Lucy Farrelly head age 30 born Ireland
Thomas Quirk lodger age 45 Liverpool
Henry Burns lodger age 28 Sailor born Liverpool

Jan

[Rosemary]

Hi Kathy and Jan,

Thanks for your message, Kathy, about the marriage between Henry Burns and Lucy Ann Farrelly, and also the 1871 entry, Jan, for Henry Burns and Lucy Farrelly. I'll look into this further tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

I note you say that Seamans records up to 1855 are at Kew, Kathy, but where would I find Seamens Crew Lists please?

Thanks, both of you, for your help.

Rosemary

[jan44]

Hi Rosemary,

You can find crew lists between 1861 and 1913 on findmypast (paysite).

Jan

[Rosemary]

Thanks for your info about Crew Lists, Jan,
I subscribe to Find My Past so will take a look tomorrow.
Rosemary

[Rosemary]

No luck with the Crew Lists, unfortunately,
Rosemary