Cold Case - Next thing to get your teeth into?

Post by **MaryA** » 14 Nov 2009 17:57

I’m encouraged by the latest successes, and especially since Colette is now lost for a new project, to throw in my great grandmother to see what you think. I give the following timeline working backwards as evidence of her date and place of birth, it’s her childhood and parents that I need.

It’s only since the arrival of the 1911 census that I discovered she had moved from Toxteth where she had worked for many years to Birkenhead, apparently lodging, and this directed me to the correct death certificate.

1915, 25th January – Margaret Ann Lunt 69 years, Poplar Road, Oxton, Formerly Domestic Nurse, Widow of Thomas Lunt Carpenter (Journeyman), Informant William R Lunt Son, in attendance.

This would give her birth year as 1845/6. She appears to like to use both names – Margaret Anne, not just Margaret, so I suspect she was given both. She is consistent giving her age through the years also her place of birth as Neston, or more specifically Hinderton which is a small area in Neston.

1911, living in the household of Mrs Elizabeth Wood, 3 Roslin Road, Oxton. She gives her age as 65. She’s had 2 children, 1 still living, her birthplace is given as NESTON, CHESHIRE.

As her son was living in Liverpool, I can only assume that she chose to “retire” to the Wirral but was probably lodging at both of the above addresses.

1901, working for the Rogerson family, living in 20 Princes Road, Toxteth Park, 55 years old, Domestic Cook born NESTON, CHESHIRE. (age transcribed as 35) RG13; Piece: 3437; Folio: 183; Page: 31.

1891, working for the Rogerson family, living in The Priory, Toxteth Park, 45 years old, Lady’s Maid Domestic Servant, born NESTON, CHESHIRE. RG12; Piece: 2940; Folio 26; Page 46

1886, 31st December, Letters of Administration of the Personal Estate of Thomas Richardson Lunt, late of Deysbrook Lane, West Derby in the County of Lancaster, Joiner, deceased who died on the 14th day of July, 1877 granted probate to Margaret Ann Lunt of The Priory, St Michaels, Aigburth.

1886 Her son was entered into the Bluecoat School, sponsored by Mrs Rogerson, her employer, but it is recorded that Margaret A Lunt (maiden name Kent) was supporting her child.

1881, working for the Rogerson family, living in the Priory, Toxteth Park, 36 years old, Domestic Servant Nurse, born HINDERTON, CHESHIRE.

The only time she had a family life was very short.
1875 Married Thomas Richardson Lunt on 1 December 1875, age 30 in St Oswalds Winwick. Her address is given simply as Winwick. Father Thomas Kent (deceased) Blacksmith. My copy certificate does not state that she signed with a cross, so presumably she signed her name. Witnesses John and Betsey Beddoes (I suspect these are church members as they witnessed many marriages).
1876 Birth of son William Richardson Lunt on 9 August 1876
1877 Death of husband on 14 July, 1877
1877 Birth of daughter Mary Ellen on 13 December, 1877
1878 Death of daughter Mary Ellen on 27 September, 1878

1871 working for the Holloway family (Master Mariner born Madeira), living Victoria Park, Wavertree, 25 years old, Domestic Servant born NESTON, CHESHIRE. (transcribed Rent) RG10; Piece: 3851; Folio: 57; Page: 21

1861 working for the Sutherberry family (Ship Builder), living 2 Galton Street, Vauxhall, 16 years old, General Servant – birthplace dittoed Liverpool, Lancashire. RG9; Piece: 2663; Folio: 106; Page: 27

She seems to have worked for well-to-do families. I suspect she was educated and could read and write.

The above are all verified facts, but earlier than this I have only some collected unrelated details.
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1841 census – HINDERTON, Neston, Cheshire – all born in County
Elizabeth Davies 62 Independent
/John Briscoe 75 Lodger Independent
Thomas Kent 38 Labourer
HO107/124/Book 6/Folio: 11/Page: 16/Line: 11

From the Cheshire Parish Register Project
1833 – Marriage on 28th January, 1833 between Thomas Kent and Jane Evans in Neston. Witnesses Edward Gleaves and Deborah Evans. C=Curate? John Husband. Both made their mark X.

1841 – Burial on 8th February 1841 Deborah Evans, Neston, age 3000
1843 – Burial on 6th March, 1843 Thomas Kent, Neston age 4000
1850 – Burial on 4th July 1850 Jane Kent, Neston, age 2700

If the Thomas found in the 1841 census is the one who married Jane Evans and died in 1843 then I don’t believe he would be the father of Margaret who consistently gives her birthdate as 1845/6.

There’s a long time between a marriage date of 1833 and her birth of 1845/6.
The Jane Kent who died in 1850 age 27 must be too young to be the one who married in 1833.

Her birth is not registered in the name of Margaret Ann[e] Kent, especially not in Cheshire – verified by the Wirral Register Office, as well as the GRO indexes.

She was not baptised in Neston, verified by Chester RO. Nor mentioned in the Church Records ie requests for Parish Relief.

There do not appear to be any school records still in existence.

There do not appear to be any Workhouse records in existence for the area.

I'm not rigid about her father being Thomas, especially a blacksmith, she could just as easily have been illegitimate, but she had to have had a mother!

So the questions are – Where was she born? Who were her parents? Where was she in 1851?

Post by **Hilary** » 14 Nov 2009 18:57

I think these must be something to do with the family

1851 H0107 2173 80 23

Hinsterton Great Neston
John Kent H widow 38 labourer agricultural
Margaret Kent unmarried sister 37
William Kent nephew 23 labourer agricultural
Thomas Kent son 9
James Kent son 7
Hannah daughter 5
Maria Kent niece 7 months
all born Neston

altered above because I read the census wrong!

Hilary
Ed Officer

PS your ancesters were long lived 4000 years old!

Post by **Hilary** » 14 Nov 2009 19:21

William on the 1851 census above is I think the illegitimate son of Maria Kent christened 1825 at Neston. Maria also had an illegitimate daughter Anne christened 1828. This could be the Jane Kent aged 15 in Birkenhead in 1841. I suspect the Jane Kent aged 27 buried in Neston in 1850 could be this Jane Kent who could be the daughter of Maria.

If this is the case Thomas' wife Jane could have remarried and therefore Margaret Anne could be under the new name in 1851.

Hilary
Ed O

Post by **Hilary** » 14 Nov 2009 19:46

Margaret Anne's possible parents are Thomas and Jane Kent nee Evans. If Thomas died 1843 and Margaret Anne was born 1844/5/6 Jane must have had another relationship!

Hilary
ED O

Post by **simone** » 14 Nov 2009 21:57

Hi Mary

Sorry if this seems way off the mark, but just want to rule it out

before I go head first.

Have you had a look at this family in 1851

birth c 1841, and place of birth also dittoed as Liverpool as on the 1861

HO107; Piece: 2180; Folio: 175; Page: 68
John Plumb 64
Jane Plumb 62
Alice Plumb 30
Mary Plumb 28
Ellen Plumb 24
Isaac T Plumb 19
Thomas Bartley 15 grandson
Margaret E Syren 12
Margaret Kent 10 grandaughter

The only reason I am querying is because her father was Thomas Kent.

Her mother must have been Margaret. There is a marriage on Lancs bmd for 1837, St Philip, Liverpool. Thomas Kent to Margaret Bartley nee Plumb (must be this way around as Thomas Bartley older than Margaret is grandson)
also notice Margaret called her daughter Mary Ellen, as in this family, although I know they were common names.

there is a possible for her in Liverpool 1841 age 1 with mother Margaret age 26, no father with them

probably all coincidental

could do with knowing the occupation of dad Thomas

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 14 Nov 2009 22:11

sorry Mary, prob not right, looks like Margaret was baptised 9/6/1840 at St Peter. Too old for your Margaret

unless she's got it totally wrong

Simone x

Post by **MaryA** » 14 Nov 2009 22:38

Thanks for that family Simone, I'm unsure about them, particularly in view of the baptism for the Margaret in St Peters, but will be keeping them on the back burner.

Thomas's occupation on the marriage certificate was Blacksmith, however, we all know how father's names are invented for show, so I'm not convinced.

Hilary, ED O - First off the ages are from the Cheshire Parish Register Project and I was hoping that somebody could confirm for me that I could just knock off the last two 0's - ie why are they there?

Secondly I knew somebody would turn up that 1851 entry and I'm hoping that somebody can suggest just how they are connected, and for that matter whose all those children are!

Beware when you go looking for burials for a Jane as there are a number of children born to a John and Jane Kent - unknown to me if this might be the John in the 1851 census.

There is a burial for a Maria Kent, 11th January, 1854, Neston, Residence Hinderton, and if I can knock off the last two 0's then her age was 3, so I suspect it's that child.

Thomas' wife Jane could have remarried and therefore Margaret Anne could be under the new name in 1851.

I suppose this is where I'm hoping the fresh eyes will help.

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Just unearthed another 1841 census - what do you think of this?
HO107/124/6/6/7 - transcribed Rent
Great Neston, Long? Lane
All born in County
Jane Kent 40 Fisherwoman
Mary Evans 16
Elizabeth Evans 12

If she's 40+ five years before Margaret's birth, could she really be her mother?

Post by **MaryA** » 15 Nov 2009 08:54

Looking for more Kents to tie in with Hilary's 1851 find above.

1861 young Thomas Kent is a servant on the Johnson's farm in Moreton, age 21, a carter, born Neston.
RG9; Piece: 2638; Folio: 101; Page: 21
This must be where he met his future wife.

In 1871 at "The Mews, Litherland
Thomas Kent Head M 29 Gardener and Coachman Cheshire Neston (transcribed Weston)
Mary Wife M 27 Morton Cheshire
Ann J daur 5 Cheshire Oxton (deaf and dumb from birth) - aaaah!
Mary E daur 4 New Brighton
John J son 2 "
RG10; Piece: 3838; Folio: 63; Page: 14

I believe this Thomas married Mary Burn Q2 1866 Gt Boughton 81 542
CheshireBMD gives the death of Thomas Kent in 1878 Wallasey 36 years old.
and by 1881 Mary Kent appears to have married William Lea and they are living in Liscard with her Kent children. Poor Anna is in a school in Liscard.

I don't think there would be any profit in following this family further forward, but haven't yet

Post by **simone** » 15 Nov 2009 09:35

Hi Mary

I was wondering if Margaret could actually be the illigitimate daughter of one of the 2 Evans girls you hav ejust found with Jane in 1841. Maybe Jane brought up Margaret as if she was her daughter

However, just fell over this family in 1851 as I was looking for jane possible being remarried.

HO107; Piece: 2173; Folio: 70; Page: 3
at Great Neston
William Hosken 43 labourer b Neston
Jane Hosken 50 b Neston
William Hosken 10
Mary Evans 3 grandaughter

may be Jane from 1841?

Simone x

Post by **simone** » 15 Nov 2009 10:01

Here is Willaim Hosken in 1841, so he obviously did remarry a Jane before 1851

at Neston HO107; 124; : 5; Civil Parish: Neston; County: Cheshire; ED: 6; Folio: 9; Page: 12
William Hasker 31 (actually Hosken)
Elizabeth Hasker 30
Joseph Hasker 7
Wm Hasker 3 Mo

there has been a correction made to the name. However it has been corrected to Hosker, so perhaps it should eb Hosker on the 1851

Wonder if the person who made it can shed any light on Jane and her family.

Simone x

Post by **MaryA** » 15 Nov 2009 10:19

Just checking out the baptisms of the children from 1851

William 9 January 1825 illegitimate son of Maria
Thomas 24 November 1841 parents John and Jane (laborer) residence Neston
James 25 March 1843 parents Joseph and Martha (labourer) residence Neston
Hannah 13 April 1845 parents John and Jane (labourer) residence Claughton, Birkenhead

Potentially there may have been a previous generation of John, Joseph, Maria and Margaret.

Opinions please - the names Ann[e] and Nancy could be interchangeable right?

Residence is Neston for the first six children and Greater Neston for the last three.
Thomas 20 August 1797 parents Thomas (labourer) and Anne
Maria 21 April 1799 parents Thomas (Chaise driver) and Anne
Elizabeth 10 March 1805 parents Tho (Chaise driver) and Nancy
John 9 January 1807 parents Thomas (Chaise driver) and Nancy - burial of infant John on 16 January 1807
James 8 January 1808 parents Thomas (Chaiseman) and Nancy
Anne 15 December 1809 parents Thomas (Chaiseman) and Nancy
Alice 23 January 1814 parents Thomas (Chaise driv) and Anne
John 12 January 1816 parents Thomas (Chaise driv) and Anne
Margaret 28 November 1817 parents Thomas (Chaise driv) and Anne

Also there are potential burials for their parents Thomas 9 February 1826 age 50 and Anne 21 January 1835 age 59.

The second John born above and Margaret fit those given in 1851 and the birth 1797 and burial 1843 for Thomas are probably those for the Thomas in the 1841 census.

The names Margaret and Anne are prominent in this family.

If this Thomas was married in 1833 to Jane Evans, why weren't they living together when they had a daughter later?

Unless she moved to Ashton under Lyne (2 possibles) then Jane didn't die before 1851 - burial for the 1850 Jane gives age 27.

No subsequent marriage to be seen for Jane.

Sorry if I seem as if I'm repeating myself, just trying to confirm or refute what I'm finding.

I feel I'm concentrating too much on the possible father being Thomas. What I need is a birth or baptism that can be tied to Margaret Anne Kent in 1845/6 and nothing I've turned up leads to one.

Post by **MaryA** » 15 Nov 2009 10:24

You have something there Simone!!!

There is a marriage for a Jane Kent, Q4 1845 Liverpool. I've looked at this before as the reference given is 20 2_6 but when I look at the page it's definitely 206. Checking that quarter and reference gave me the list of names including William Hosker but I wasn't able to find the marriage on LancashireBMD.

Post by **MaryA** » 15 Nov 2009 10:31

Just to bring a smile to this, I've been looking for baptism of Evans's and came across this one

John Evans 18 September 1844 Mother Sarah Evans - Single Woman of Ill Repute!
She also had an Ann in 1847

Post by **simone** » 15 Nov 2009 14:25

some of these vicars didn't mince words did they

Anyway, back to William Hosker, his first marriage was to Elizabeth Evans 02 Sep 1833 at Neston (a submitted entry), the same year as the Thomas Kent / Jane Evans marriage

So are Jane and Elizabeth sisters

Simone x

Post by **MaryA** » 15 Nov 2009 14:42

Oh wow, I wonder if for the first time ever I'm getting somewhere with this lady.

I'm wondering about the birth of Margaret Hosker in Q1 1845 Liverpool ........ could be worth a punt if I specify the mother's name has to be Jane, what do you think?

Post by **simone** » 15 Nov 2009 14:45

just read my mind Mary

I've just been searching for Margaret Hosker, you beat me to it

was thinking Jane must have been pregnant when she married William if we have the right family

only thing is the birth is before the marriage

got to take dogs out now, will look back in later

Simone x

Post by **MaryA** » 15 Nov 2009 14:48

That would make sense wouldn't it? Pity about the dates. Mind you at Jane's age in 1841, with two Evans children with her, I would have thought were hers, so she may have had a marriage to Unknown Evans and have a completely different maiden name.

Following on from the previous marriage there were four children born to William and Elizabeth Hosker in Neston between 1834 and 1847.

Perhaps I should have looked before I leaped, ordered the birth cert for Margaret Hosker, but have also found a death in 1847 West Derby, at that date no ages given so can't be sure. Still the maiden name of Jane would be useful, IF the birth is for her daughter.

Post by **Hilary** » 15 Nov 2009 16:21

Jane and Elizabeth could be sisters. There's a Jane Evans christened in 1801 in Neston parents Edward and Elizabeth Evans shoemaker and a Betty christened 1806 daughter of Edward and Betty Evans.

Elizabeth Evans appears to be alive in 1841 with possibly a daughter Sarah christened 1815 and a son Edward. Possibly born 1773 Elizabeth I mean. Was it legal to marry your sister in law at that time? Maybe that's why they moved.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Post by **MaryA** » 15 Nov 2009 16:33

1907 Dead Wife's Sister's Act (man allowed to marry his sister in law)

So no they weren't, but then again I'm not positive they were sisters unless Jane had the two children illegitimately. Added after - I shouldn't assume that they were Jane's children!

They returned to Cheshire by 1861, living in Lower Bebington. RG9; Piece: 2637; Folio: 53; Page: 30 Surname Hooker.

Post by **simone** » 15 Nov 2009 16:40

maybe they were Elizabeth's children? from before her marriage to Thomas.