Electoral Rolls

[RRYLATT]

I am having a problem confirming a *Killed in action* WW1 for a William (Henry) THomas born about 1888-9 (Bootle)Liverpool according to 1901 & 1911 census. In the WW1 the family address was . 81a Barndale rd Mossley Hill Liverpool same address was step Mother Mary Ann Thomas widow the address existed in the Army record of her other step son Edward Walter Thomas who was killed 11 Feb 1916 France. Edward used his brother William H Thomas as his next of kin at the same address.I do have photo's of the two brothers in uniform of the Kings(Liverpool)reg.I would like someone to confirm who was living at the above address and checking the Elec;Rolls to confirm William was not alive..I am assuming that Mary Ann Thomas would be in a state of shock etc so some one else might be at the address 1918.19.20 etc in 1924 Mary Ann Thomas left UK for Australia and then Canada where she died in 1929 with her only daughter Edith Lillian Thomas her obit stated only 3 sons from her 1st marriage were alive 1 in Canada and 2 in Australia no mention of her second marriage sons I assume both were killed
Thanks
Ray

[jan44]

Hi Ray,

Welcome to the site,

I can't help with the electoral rolls they would have to be looked up at Liverpool Records Office on microfilm.

I have looked in the 1914 Directory (on CD) and at 81a Barndale Road was a Mrs Annie Thomas, only the head of the household is listed in the directories.

Jan

[northmeols]

by any chance do you have any other info on william like his military number or such

[RRYLATT]

Sorry I do not have a number.his photo shows his cap badge as the Kings Liverpool the same reg his younger brother Edward Walter Thomas was in and killed 11 Feb 1916 I have Edwards record from Ancestry.uk No record found in this web site of William (Henry) Thomas except a few unknown address or relatives
All I have is his photo in uniform and his home address Sigh
Thanks
Ray

[northmeols]

I think I have them

WILLIAM THOMAS Regiment, Corps etc
King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Battalion/etc 18th Battalion.
born, Liverpool
Enlisted, Liverpool
Residence, Liverpool
Rank, PRIVATE
Number, 42839
Died Date 30/01/1915
Died How Killed in action
Theatre of War, France & Flanders

Surname Thomas, Edward
Regiment, Corps etc King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Battalion/etc 18th Battalion.
Born Liverpool
Enlisted Liverpool
Residence Liverpool
Rank PRIVATE
Number 16846
Died Date 11/02/1916
Died How Died of wounds
Theatre of War France & Flanders

[daggers]

CWGC have a different date for the death of William Thomas, 18th Bn, King's, in 1915. I will look again and return here.
D

[daggers]

Northmeols
There is some discrepancy about the Wm Thomas details you posted. CWGC have that soldier, with number 42839, as having died on 31/7/17 and commemorated at the Menin Gate, Ypres - that was one of the black days for the Pals battalions.
In Jan 1915 the Pals were still training in UK. Odd, this one!

The details for EW Thomas tally with the Roll of Honour in 'Liverpool Pals' by Graham Maddocks, drawn from 'Soldiers Died in the Great War.

I'll seek some more...

Here is the CWGC info on E.W. Thomas;

THOMAS, EDWARD WALTER
E W
United Kingdom
Private
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
18th Bn.
22
11/02/1916
16846
Son of Edward and Mary Ann Thomas, of Bootle, Liverpool.
Commonwealth War Dead
Plot I. Row D. Grave 23.
CORBIE COMMUNAL CEMETERY

I am getting confused, having several windows open [on the PC] at once, so will send this and look again! Is this the right EWT, wth Mary Ann's address as Bootle?
D

[MaryA]

The William Thomas who died on 30/1/1915 would appear to be William W Thomas, which conflicts with the information given that his name was William H.

Also if Edward named him as next of kin, hopefully we would be looking for a date later than February 1916.

There is a Private William Harold Thomas, who died of wounds 12 September 1916, King's (Liverpool Regiment), 6th Battalion, Number 2239. The address is given as 1 Oriel Road, Bootle.

This is what was written across the top of the Service Record, I find it difficult to make out what it says.

[RRYLATT]

I checked the CWGC and sure enough a William Thomas has the same number and regiment!! BUT the parents and address are wrong!!!!! now I am TOTALY confused.....but I will still hold on to the William who was killed 30 Jan 1915 untill somehow we can straighten the date
Sigh
THanks all of you have been and still are a great help
Ray

[Hilary]

Edward Thomas 16846 King's Regiment army papers show next of kin
FATHER as William Thomas 81a Barndale Road Mossley Hill.

Later after his death his effects are to be sent to William H Thomas at 81a Barndale Road Mossley so if this is his brother not his father he must have still been living in September 1916.


What was Edward's father's name William or Edward?

Ed Officer

[Hilary]

I'm not convinced that Mary A was William H Thomas' father.

1901 census shows in Toxteth Park
Edward Thomas H M 44 bn Liverpool
Mary A wife 42 born Liverpool
William H son 12 bn Liverpool
Gertrude daughter 9 bn Liverpool
Edward W son 7 bn Liverpool
Edith daughter 3 bn Liverpool
Reginald Jarrat stepson 18 bn Birkenhead
Cecil Jarrat stepson 11 bn Birkenhead
Frederick Jarrat stepson 10 Bn Birkenhead

the 1891 census shows at 47 Garfield St Bootle
Edward Thomas h M 35 bn Liverpool
Mary wife 36
William H Thomas son 2 bn Bootle
Gertrude daughter 1
William J Thomas widower fatehr bn Liverpool

I can find birth registrations for Cecil June Q 1889 Birkenhead and Frederick June Q 1891 Birkenhead so I think Edward married a Mary and had William H and Gertrude and possibly Edward and Edith. Mary then dies and he then marries Mary Jarratt who already has 3 children.


Annie Jarrett marries Edward Thomas in 1896 at St Philomen Toxteth Park. Neither Edward W Thomas or William H Thomas are her children and I think this is why on the CWGC site Edward Walter is given as the son of Edward amd Mary Thomas of Bootle. He was! His brother William probably gave this information as papers from the CWGC would come to him as the name given on his brother's papers even if it does say father. The obituary for Mary would not mention the brothers as they were not her sons.

Ed Officer

[Hilary]

I suggest you try local papers such as the Bootle Times and the Liverpool Echo to see if you can glean further information. Both are held at Liverpool Record office on film.

Ed Officer

[jan44]

I have not been getting notified to replies to posts, so just popped in and had a look.

Getting back to what Mary has posted with part of the paper (above).

I can make out some of the writing From ?? 12.9.16 Notifiied W ?? N of Kin 17/9/16

I looked in the 1914 directory and at 1 Oriel Rd Bootle was Thomas, Joseph Hallows - Shipwright.

Hope that helps.

Jan

[MaryA]

Having another look I think it says

Died of W(ounds) 12.9.16
Notified W.A. Ass?? N of Kin 17/9/16

[RRYLATT]

Subject: Thomas Family
Ed
Sounds plausable your statement.The problem is CWGC states son of Mary Ann and Edward Thomas This could mean When the army notified who ever was in the house which in 1916 was Mary Ann Thomas widow and her only living daughter Edith Lillian Thomas(she was from the marriage of Edward and Mary Ann the 2nd marriage).So lets imagine the scene at 81a..the Telegram arrives stating the Kia and the response of Mary Ann!!,Edith is aged about 17 yrs and Mary Ann distraught I can imagine Edith responding to any enquiry concerning her step brother no longer at home or when the 2nd telegram arrived concerning the next son Kia.(Re separate photos of William and Edward in the Kings (Liverpool)reg uniform) Edith would state the parents would be her mother and her late father..I would imagine in 1919 as for Edward Walter in his army record saying William was his next of kin would be natural for both of them..some clerk must have put father in brackets certainly not Edward..As for the 1919 army sending possesions to William THomas remember he was supose to be his father.!!again I think it would be Edith giving any info about who the parents were..
I also have photos of one Jarett son together with William and Edward on the back was written that they just got back from a holiday in the I.O.M
and how *Ma*(Mary Ann Thomas) was upset at Fred (Jarrett) as he was getting married and had not paid any of the money he owed Ma and Reg Jarrett.At the time Fred was in Canada Reg was in Australia this left Cecil Jarrett writing the letter.All I am saying is they were a very close knit family.Cecil went to Australia before WW1 started.Bottom line is the Thomas boys thought Mary Ann would not be able to handle any situation if she was next of kin besides think of the word KIN it means family and William would be *next kin*Their step sister and step mother in their logic minds were not *Kin*
As for the Obit it was sent to the newspaper by Fred Jarrett and he would know if the sons were dead !!OOPS I forgot one of the photo's with the Thomas in uniform states in ink *Killed*..the other photo writing cant be read.
Thanks
Ray

[RRYLATT]

I found both brothers in the data base of Liverpool Town hall at least one E.W.Thomas panel 27 and hopefully the other W Thomas panel 36 both of same reg and Bn
I sent an e mail to Town Hall requesting dates of Death keeping my fingers crossed..here is the site.

http://www.civichalls.liverpool.gov.uk/ ... /index.asp.
Any one has any ideas to find the correct William Thomas without Kew Archives search ?
THanks
every one
Ray

[Hilary]

I don't think a National Archives search would find the information you want. All the Service Papers they have have been digitised and are on Ancestry.

Have you asked Liverpool Record Office whether they would search the local paper for the date you want?

The Kings Regiment had a museum within the Museum Of Liverpool Life. This museum is being rebuilt at the moment. The regiment used to have an archivist and someone who had a bit of a database of their soldiers. It might be worth contacting the museum to see if they can put you in touch with someone to do with the Kings.

Ed Officer

[RRYLATT]

Liverpool Town hall replied to my request but the person involved wont be back till the 23rd Nov.
Ancestry.com army records have a few William Thomas but none with the correct info that would inform me of my William
Thomas.My line of research now is searching the monuments or memorials for William Thomas.
I do have all the BMD's the census's pertaining to the Jarretts,Thomas's Obits, Wills.including street directories.and newspaper research.this site was sent to me as a last resort,
Ray

[RRYLATT]

Dagger
I do hope when nyou check more you will have a clearer answer looking forward to anything you might find
Thanks
Ray

[daggers]

Nothing to add, so far, I am afraid. Will post anything I can find.
D