St Helens Royal Engineers- 55th West Lancs Division Update

Post by **MaryA** » 21 Oct 2009 11:31

Hi Mike and welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting the photograph of the medals, how proud you must be to have them.

If there's any way we can help discover any more information about the family, ask away and we'll do what we can.

Post by **Eric Jones** » 26 Oct 2009 22:38

I have a Webley revolver (all legal) engraved "Lieut T C Simpson
W L D R E (T)". I know that the abbreviations stand for "West Lancashire
Division Royal Engineers Territorial Force" and that he was promoted to 2nd Lieutenant in July 1916. Other than that I have not been able to find out anything about him, not even his first name.
Can you help or point me in the right direction?
If only his revolver could talk.
When I purchased it I was told that he won the MC but again I have discovered nothing, so it is possible that this information could be a red herring.

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Oct 2009 09:28

Hi and welcome to the forum. I hope we can be of some help, in case you don't have it this is the Medal Roll Index Card.

I'll see if there's anything else I can find.

Post by **daggers** » 27 Oct 2009 09:58

The National Archives has him as 'T.Cooper Simpson', in their index to medal cards, which should also be available on Ancestry. He rose to Captain.
I'll try the Gazette
D

Post by **daggers** » 27 Oct 2009 10:04

Thomas Cooper Simpson, gazetted 2nd Lieut in West Lancs Div. Eng. [Territorial] 28 Sept 1914, Gazette date 2 Oct.
Gazette date 2 June 1916, temp Lieut T...C...S... in a long list of awards of Military Cross - no citations.
Nothing more found in a quick look as far as 1/1/20.

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Oct 2009 10:59

Glad you found that D, I was beginning to think he was Thomas Cyril from Canada.

Strange there appears to be no other mention of him in the Records except for the Medal Rolls ...

Does this help?

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Oct 2009 11:22

The following are the births of all Thomas Cooper Simpsons

Q4 1859 Scarborough
Q3 1876 West Derby
Q4 1889 Halifax
Q3 1895 Ipswich
(These are Registration Districts not towns)

Post by **daggers** » 27 Oct 2009 12:30

That looks like the medal card.
There is more about Simpson in the London Gazette, searching variously on 'Cooper Simpson', the full three names, and 'T. C. Simpson'.
Gazette date detail
25 Sep 1917 Temp Lieut to be Lieut
31 Dec 1918 to be acting Captain, from 6 Oct 1918
18 Mar 1919 relinquishes acting rank of Captain from 14 Dec 1918

It looks as though he reengaged in WW2, having been in the Territorial Reserve of Officers and ended with the Honorary rank of Major in 1945.

A Google search on the three names brought up a cached Malta family history site with a list deaths, including:
"Thomas Cooper-Simpson [note the hyphen] aged 83 years, born in England, died 25 Sept 1973."
D

Post by **daggers** » 27 Oct 2009 12:42

Yet more, this from the Times archive online:
T Cooper Simspon attended the London dinner of Old Sedberghians on 21 March 1934.

The birth of a son [unnamed] on 28 Oct 1934 was announced: to T Cooper Simpson and Florence Olive, at 1 Nutley Terrace, Hampstead, NW3.

FREEBMD gives their marriage, regd Hampstead 3rd quarter 1933 - maiden name Bunney.

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Oct 2009 13:14

From his age at death it looks like the Halifax birth entry.

I would have expected him to be a Lancashire man because of his regiment, would you?

But the one in Lancashire was 24 years old in 1901, a provision merchant's clerk, born Liverpool, parents Abram and Clara and siblings Mary E and William A. He seems too old. He's 34 in the 1911 census, but I haven't checked who he's living with until I get some opinions as to what we think of him?

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Oct 2009 13:18

Well this puts a spanner in the works so far as his age is concerned -

The parents of the Liverpool Thomas C Simpson, born 1876 are

Abraham Simpson and Clara Cooper who married in 1870 St Peter, Everton.

It's looking very likely.

Post by **daggers** » 27 Oct 2009 13:29

Mary
The medal index card you posted did not include the Military Cross, so there may be another card for Simpson. It might be worth a look under Cooper-Simpson as well.
As for his army record papers, those for officers are filed separately at Kew from 'other ranks' [naturally!] so would not show up in the Anc.. indexes. I expect a military mind will know where and how to track them, if the poster, Eric, wants to pursue this when he returns. At least we have been able to track the award of the MC!

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Oct 2009 13:34

I'll have another look for Cooper-Simpson, meanwhile maybe the Liverpool Thomas's marriage might confirm that he's the wrong person.

Thomas Cooper Simpson to Mary Catherine Burrows Toxteth Park 1902
In 1911 they are living in Toxteth Park with daughters Doris Evelyn 7 and Marjory Clara 3.

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Oct 2009 14:26

Sorry no luck with medal cards for Cooper-Simpson.

Also difficult to pin down the Yorkshire one.

Post by **daggers** » 27 Oct 2009 16:05

Mary's post of the first medal index card shows that as well as receiving an MC, Simpson was mentioned in dispatches.
The Gazette Supplement of 13 July 1916 is a long list of those 'Mentioned' for distinguished and gallant services rendered during the period of General Sir Charles Monro's Command of the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force. There is a note that the publication of the list had been delayed by the need to consult with Australian authorities.
This General was in charge of the withdrawal of the Force from the Dardanelles [which I believe was carried out rather more successfully than the initial operations.]
D

Post by **Eric Jones** » 28 Oct 2009 11:24

I'm amazed at the information you have found and a little embarrassed at my poor efforts at researching.
Unfortunately I have to go to work soon so I do not have enough time
today to examine all you have found out. Will have a proper look on my day off tomorrow. Thank you again
Eric.

Post by **MaryA** » 28 Oct 2009 14:03

I'm only sorry that we haven't been able to identify which family he comes from, by the age it doesn look as though it must be the Yorkshire one although I'm unable to identify him for certain in the censuses.

Post by **steves** » 15 Jan 2010 21:21

Hi Mark,

I have only recently discovered that my grandfather Sapper Joseph Twist served with the 419 Field Company. He lived in Rivington Road St Helens and was a blacksmith working for William Seddon in Mill Place St Helens prior to enlisting.

His enlistment papers show that he enlisted on 24th March 1915. His service numbers being 7711 and 426183.

His service record shows the following:
Home 24/03/1915 to 05/08/1916
BEF 06/08/1915 to 31/03/1917
Home 01/04/1917 to 04/09/1917 when he was discharged being no longer physically fit for for War Service.

He spent time in Bangor Military Hospital, North Wales from 21/07/1917 to 13/09/1917.

I have no idea why he was discharged and can only assume that it was as a result of injuries he suffered in France.
I would like to learn more about where he was in action, can you help with this or point me in the right direction. I hope this helps with the list you are building.

Post by **Mark Abbott** » 16 Jan 2010 18:59

Steves

Thank you for taking the trouble to post the info on you grandfather. I will check to see if I have anything on him.

Do you have a photo of him in uniform?

Best wishes

Mark

Post by **steves** » 16 Jan 2010 20:07

Hi Mark,
As far as I am aware no photographs exist of Joseph in uniform.

Steve

Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

St Helens Royal Engineers- 55th West Lancs Division Update

Lieut T C Simpson W L D R E (T)

Simpson

Simpson

419 Field Company West Lancashire Division RE

Joseph Twist