St Helens Royal Engineers- 55th West Lancs Division Update

[Mark Abbott]

Busybee,

None as yet but I will contact you if I come across any.

Mark

[Mark Abbott]

My database is ever expanding; thanks to all who have contacted me.

I am however struggling with photos of the soldiers involved. If anyone does have any or know where any exist, I would be obliged to hear from you.

Best wishes.

Mark

[mayanbilly]

The drill hall is actually in Mill St, not far from College St, down the side of Lowe House RC Church.

As you say, the inscription gives the date of 1861, along with the motto 'DEFENCE NOT DEFIANCE'. The Sea Cadets do indeed use it, and for their purposes it is called 'TS SCIMITAR'. A variety of other community organisations also meet there.

The building was headquartes to the 2nd Volunteer (Rifle) Battalion of the South Lancashire Regiment, which became the 5th Battalion of the Territorials. Adjacent is Volunteer St, leading to Duke St, where the Rifle Hotel stands, once named The Rifle Corps.

The Battalion had outlying companies at Widnes and Prescott.

The other drill hall in St Helens was home to the TF Engineers, and stood at Croppers Hill. The present TA Jubilee Barracks now stands on the site, and the name (and its appearance) suggests it was constructed in the late 1970s.

I'll provide pics as soon as I can.

Hi Mark I found this on a site,maybe useful to you..mayanbilly

[Mark Abbott]

Thanks for the info. It is the Drill Hall in Croppers Hill that I am most interested in as this was the home of the local RE units.

Mark

[Mark Abbott]

At last!

I'm unsure of the date this was taken.

[MaryA]

Success! well done.

[Mark Abbott]

I am looking for photos of the men who served with the St Helens RE units and would welcome the chance to take copies if available.

Mark

[Mark Abbott]

In 1917, army units were renumbered and the St Helens RE received the following:

419 Field Company RE: Number block 426001-428000

422 Field Company RE: Number block 428001-430000

423 Field Company RE: Number block 430001-432000

55th Divisional Signal Company RE: Number block 432001-434000


If anyone has any documents/photos etc relating to the units please contact me.

[gillian]

My Grandfather Harry Critchley served in the Territorial Army Royal Engineers in WW1. I have his enlistment form and medical card which gives his number as 7929 428209, He was a driver.
Harry served at Gallipoli and in Salonica, family history also records that he went to Russia. We have a letter, which was sent to all the familys of men serving in Salonica, from the Bishop of London, refutting the widely held view that they had a soft option compared to the army in France.
I have a photograph of Harry and also one of him with other soldiers of his unit.
If this can be of any help to your research please let me know.
Gillian

[Mark Abbott]

Gillian,

Many thanks for contacting me. Do you know that his service papers have survived and are available on Ancestry?

I would very much welcome the chance to see any document/photos that you have. As you can see from my earlier posts, the number block - 428001-430000; indicates that your grandfather served with 422 Field Company RE. This unit served with the 55th West Lancashire Division in France and Belgium. I can only assume that your grandfather was part of a reinforcement draft that was sent to Egypt (from his papers) rather than to France. More research I think!!

Again, thank you for your post.

Mark

[eucera]

A relative of mine, Noel Edmund Scott RE served as a junior officer with the 422 Field Coy. RE in Flanders in 1917, and died of wounds in September 1917 in Poperinghe.

I have several photos of him in uniform and a very very few bits of information. I would love to know more about where he might have trained, served and received his wounds (sniper shot).

He was an Irishman from Dublin and I believe had joined the army before Easter 1916

If you would like to see the pics, I can send them or post them

Cheers, Stuart Roberts

[Mark Abbott]

Stuart,

A quick look at the War Diary shows:

28/6/17 2Lt N E Scott proceeded on leave to UK.

10/7/1917 2Lt N E Scott returned from leave

20/9/1917 Company took part in offensive action, making, repairing W6 track NE ot Ypres 2Lt Scott wounded in head

21/9/1917 2 Lt N E Scott died of wounds

I will have a look at the diary over the next few days and see what I can find.

I would love to see the photos and any other details you may have.

Thanks for posting.

Regards

Mark

[Mark Abbott]

Going backwards!

3/1/1917 2Lt N E Scott reported back from leave and transferred to this unit.

Clearly he served with another unit in France; have you looked for his service papers at TNA?

Mark

[eucera]

Mark

I have done a search through Ancestry and found the reports of his death. Also The CWGC site gives a few more details too.

I have not managed a hunt through TNA though.

More soon, Stuart

[Mark Abbott]

Stuart,

Officer's papers are not an Ancestry. I can recommend a professional researcher whom I have used for many years to search at TNA.

Mark

[Mark Abbott]

I my records, I have discovered some information relating to 2Lt Scott:

from the report of Cpl P Jones 423 Field Coy RE

"...Shortly aftrerwards I saw Lt Scott of the 422 Field Coy RE, carrying a wounded man on his back towards GALLIPOLI FARM. I then went and reported to him and asked his adviceas to what I should do and he agreed it was impossible to proceed to DELVA and so we had better consolidateat GALLIPOLI. I then mustered a party of 15 Sappers and Infantry and dug a trench 40 yds long and put on e MG Emplacement at each end. In the meantime Lt Scott was badly wounded in the head by a sniper at about 11.00am. I then had him dressed by a Stretcher Bearer and put fairly comfortable. I then had orders to man the trench with my party and the garrison (6th King's Liverpool regt.) as the enemy was counterattacking. We manned the trench until I received orders from the OC Garrison to get my men and take Lt Scott to a Dressing Station. I got four men and took him to POMMERN CASTLE and handed him over to the RAMC who dressed him and took him away."

The above occured on the 20th September 1917 during the 3rd Battle of Ypres which started on 31st July 1917. The places mentioned were German strong points that had been captured.




Section of a Trench Map showing the locations mentioned in the report






Modern day Gallipoli Farm



Looking from the site of Gallipoli Farm towards Pommern Castle with Ieper/Ypres in the background.

It is on this land that 2 Lt Scott received his fatal wound.



POMMERN CASTLE and GALLIPOLI FARM are located on "Hazeweidestraat". POMMERM CASTLE being located where the farm with the smoke is. GALLIPOLI FARM being further up the road on the left

[eucera]

This has been a wonderful experience. Mark - your help has answered a lot of questions that our family has never had any answers to. It also raises a few more, but that may be for others to pursue.

Thank you again for your knowledge, expertise and willingness to share

Stuart

[gillian]

Hi Mark
Thank you for replying, I got the enlistment form through Ancestry & the medical card from National Archives. My Grandfather Harry survived the War, but was left with a stomach ulcer, my Grandmother use to tell us that at times the men only had a ration of one pint of water a day which may have contributed to the ill health. The ulcer perforated and he died of perotinitus in 1924, my Dad (Harry's only child) was only 2 months old.
The Territorial Army Hall is at the bottom of Croppers Hill, and this is were he enlisted. Harry was a driver of horses, he must have been skilled already at this as the family had a carting business.
I have scanned the documents and photographs but I am not sure how I can attach them to the message, please let me know how I can forward them to you.

Best regards
Gillian

[MaryA]

Hi Gillian and Eucera and welcome to the forum.

I see you and Mark have both managed to be of assistance to each other - great!

To post a picture in your message see here although this should be for small portions of a document only, not whole pages. I think Mark will send you his email address so that you will be able to forward them direct.

[rvdmikej]

Hi! I'm new here and Noel Scott was my great uncle - thus you may be able to work out that Eucera is my nephew - hi Stuart! I have Noel's war medals - in pristine condition of course because they were never worn. Many years ago they were passed to me by one of my father's sisters. It has been really interesting to read the material that has come via Stuart from Mark and also to see the photographs. Here is a pic of the medals:

Noel was my father's favourite uncle and I remember he used to talk about him quite a lot. I think that his death was a great personal blow.