Still searching for Courtliffs

Post by **Lesley Black** » 11 Oct 2009 10:53

Hi folks just a quickie before I go to work

Family Search gave me marriage of Eleanor COURTLIFF to William LONG (mariner) at St Peter's, Liverpool in 1834

Thought I'd made a break through with another line of Courtliffs until I viewed marriage cert at LRO

She was a widow - which means Eleanor had married into the COURTLIFF family.

The style of marriage cert doesn't have details of fathers names, ages or addresses just simply says "of this parish".

Have found in 1841 census - Ellen age 48 & William, sailor age 35 living in Gay Court, Liverpool, which could be them. Gives Ellen's place of birth as Scotland.

Just can't find anything else

If anyone can suggest where I should try next I'd be really grateful

Lesley

Post by **PJLong** » 11 Oct 2009 11:58

Hi Lesley. Saw the Scotland connection and thought I'd have a nosey at my fave site (Scotlandspeople). Well, I'm flummoxed - not even ONE Courtliff anywhere in any records! Either I'm doing something wrong........they go back to the 1500's so surely there should be one somewhere. Give me a shout if you want me to hunt in there as I have some credits left.
Pauline.

Post by **dickiesam** » 11 Oct 2009 15:12

Hello Lesley,
Like Pauline I am similarly flummoxed! Nary a single Courtliff in any records in Scotland. Wondering if that surname is correctly transcribed? Do you have an actual image of the marriage entry you saw at the LRO?

Also did a COURT* wildcard search for births and marriages in Scotland without finding a name anywhere near Courtliff.

However, a FreeBMD search from 1837 to 1875 (all counties) did throw up 7 Courtliff events, including a Liverpool marriage in 1854. Oddly all 7 events were in Liverpool, so sounds as though it's a very 'local' family. Will try to find the groom, John, in 1861.
Dickiesam

Post by **Hilary** » 11 Oct 2009 15:29

The best I could do was a John Courtliff married Mary Thomas at St Peters Liverpool in 1854 - could this be a son of Eleanors? Having said this I couldn't find John on the census!!

Definitely ocurious!!

Ed Officer

Post by **LindaS** » 11 Oct 2009 15:42

The marriage for Eleanor Courtliff is on LAN OPC Married on 14 Jul 1834. I was the one that transcribed it but unfortunately I havent still got the original records ( I sent them back after I had finished with them)

Post by **dickiesam** » 11 Oct 2009 16:17

Hi,
An all counties search for all events on FreeBMD, 1875 to 1900, produced around 20 hits, all in Liverpool. Most definitely a Liverpool clan! Followed up a birth in 1889 and at last found a Courtliff family in a census.

1891:
COURTLIFF, Robert - Head - Married - 32 - 1859 - Brickmakers Labourer - Liverpool, Lancashire.
COURTLIFF, Mary - Wife - Married - 32 - 1859 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
COURTLIFF, Ann - Dtr - 5 - 1886 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
COURTLIFF, Edward - Son - 2 - 1889 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
RG number: RG12 Piece: 2922 Folio: 84 Page: 18
Address: 21a, Bidder Street, Liverpool, Lancashire.

Robert is also in the 1901, this time his brother Edward is in the household. Incidentally, Robert is shown as Courtliffe in his birth entry in 1859, but he's still to be found anywhere in 1861!

Anyone having success finding the Courtliffs in 1881 and earlier?
Dickiesam

Post by **Lesley Black** » 11 Oct 2009 17:21

Hi everybody who's replied

Just back from work

haven't got an image of 1834 marr cert just copied the details but it's as clear as day - no hint of another possibility - could be she was known as that name I suppose.

Agree it's very local name as everyone marrying into the family no matter what nationality they were - welsh, italian etc all seemed to marry in Liverpool

Got quite excited too at a Scottish connection cos there's so much more info available on their certificates than on English ones!!

If the 1841 sighting is the 'happy couple' and her age is correct guess it's unlikely there were any children. Can't find deaths for either of them so don't know where they ended up.

Can trace the family to the 1851 census and thru certificates can get back to about 1800 with John Courtliff, bricklayer who had a son John born about 1823 also a bricklayer who in turn had a son John born about 1843 who was a ................. labourer but that's about it.

Before then who knows, which is why Eleanor Courtliff was such an exciting find!!

Thanks to you all for your help

Lesley x

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Oct 2009 18:46

this might be something to file away

Lancashire, England, Extracted Parish Records
Text: Garner, John, 28, sailor & Dorothy Cortliffe, 26, both Stalmine 20 Nov 1749
Book: Lancaster Marriage Bonds
Collection: Lancashire, Westmoreland: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale Kendal Furness and Copeland and Amounderness (Archdeaconry of Richmond), 1746-1755

Post by **Hilary** » 11 Oct 2009 19:14

Good find that North Neols

As none of us can find the family in the censuses can you post the reference for 1851 to fulfill our curiosity.

Civil Registration began in Scotland in 1855. and it is only from then on you get the fuller birth certificates. Before that you are dependant on parish registers which have very similar amounts of information to those in England and Wales. What is needed is a marriage of Eleanor possibly in Liverpool to John. If she's 48ish in 1841 you'd be looking for a marriage 1820ish onwards. I think you might need to check every church in Liverpool for that time.

How do you know that this Eleanor widow is the wife of a John Courtliff?

Ed Officer

Post by **Lesley Black** » 11 Oct 2009 21:02

Sorry Ed Officer, I may have confused everybody (not for the 1st time in my ancestral search) by mentioning John in the same breath as Eleanor.

cannot connect Eleanor to John YET - I only mentioned the Johns in the context of my findings.

As for 1851 part of the family transcribed as Cothliff - we're still trying to work out the reasons why.

Henry (a plasterer) & wife Lucy with daughter sarah Ellen & niece Mary Thornton (Lucy's maiden name). Henry & Lucy's marriage certificate (1845) clearly show the family name to be Cortliff and Henry appears to have signed the cert rather than making his mark.

HO 107/2185 page 25

Sorry if I've not put the reference in the correct format.

Lesley

Post by **Lesley Black** » 11 Oct 2009 21:07

Hi Northmeols

WOW - have never been able to find any mention of my family name (however it's spelt!!) so really impressed.

Actually that's not quite true - Tina found a convict Mary Cleave, whose alias was Mary Courtliff , and was transported down under for a minor indiscretion!!

Lesley

Post by **Hilary** » 11 Oct 2009 21:23

Who is Henry's father on his marriage certificate?

I looked up your old posting and thought we were after a John which was why I connected her to Eleanor.

I think you'll have to do a trawl through all baptisms and marriages at churches in existence in the early 1800s to try and find these people.

On your old posting someone posted saying that they could help or words to that effect. Did anything come of that?

Has the family been found in any directories of the time?

Ed Officer

Post by **Lesley Black** » 11 Oct 2009 21:45

Henry's father was John Cortliffe, a bricklayer.

Henry was living in Gay Street at the time of his marriage, he was a plasterer.

With help from a fellow searcher Carol Coupe we've been able to link several members of our families

She follows the Cothliff line and me the Courtliff!!

The key appears to be Henry's change of name.

If I follow the trades of my family they're all plasterers right down to my granddad. If you follow the Cothliffs they too are plasterers and even today are a successful company based in Bootle.

Spent some time at the LRO yesterday going through several years of St Peters marriages in the hope I'd find Eleanor's 1st marriage but no joy.

Still, it keeps me out of mischief

Lesley

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Oct 2009 22:36

I have found several refs for courtliff don't know if any are yours.

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
Name: Edward Courtliff
Birth Place: Liverpool
Residence: Liverpool
Death Date: 1 Jul 1917
Enlistment Location: Liverpool
Rank: Private
Regiment: King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Battalion: 18th Battalion.
Number: 27376
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Aldershot

1891 England Census
Civil parish: Everton
Street Address: 14 Gadsby st
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Courtliff 52 born: Liverpool widow
Mary Pendergast 36 daughter widow
Edward Courtliff 24 son
Frances Courtliff 38 daughter in law
Leo M Pendergast 10 grandson
Elizabeth Pendergast 1 grandaughter
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2943; Folio 131; Page 21; GSU roll: 6098053.

1891 England Census
Civil parish: Everton
Street Address: 24 Gadsby st
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Develin 33
Margaret Develin 27
Albert Develin 7
James Develin 4
Thomas Develin 1
John Courtliff 42 brother in law born: Liverpool
Ellen Courtliff 26 sister in law
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2943; Folio 131; Page 22; GSU roll: 6098053.

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Oct 2009 22:42

1881 England Census
Civil parish: Bootle Cum Linacre
Street Address: 36 Canal St
Occupation: Plasterer
Household Members: Name Age
John Cothliff 25 born: Lpool, Lancashire, England
Harriet Cothliff 24
Sarah E. Cothliff 4
John H. Cothliff 1
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3692; Folio: 128; Page: 37; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341884.

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Oct 2009 22:46

1871 England Census
Name: Sarah Cothliff
Age: 22
Relation: Servant
Where born: Liverpool
Civil parish: West Derby
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Samuel 61
Watkin Samuel 57
Edwd Samuel 50
Eliza Samuel 46
Timothy Collins 31
Mary Collins 30
Sarah Cothliff 22
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3849; Folio: 47; Page: 52; GSU roll: 841928.

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Oct 2009 22:48

another spelling for you to try

1871 England Census
Name: John Cautliffe
Age: 69
Spouse's Name: Hannah
Where born: Huddersfield, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: MacClesfield
Household Members: Name Age
John Cautliffe 69
Hannah Cautliffe 65
Rachel Cautliffe 19
Daniel Lowndes 70
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3673; Folio: 100; Page: 2; GSU roll: 841867.

1861 England Census
Where born: MacClesfield, Cheshire, England
Civil parish: Castleton
Street Address:brim rod lane end
Occupation:silk weaver
Household Members: Name Age
Chas Courtliffe 35
Lydia Courtliffe 28
Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3034; Folio: 8; Page: 10; GSU roll: 543067.

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Oct 2009 22:52

1861 England Census
Where born: L'Pool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Liverpool
Street Address:Gay court
Occupation:plasterer
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Cathliff 38
Lucy Cathliff 35
Sarah E Cathliff 12
John Cathliff 5
Arthur Cathliff 1 4 Mo
Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2695; Folio: 42; Page: 19; GSU roll: 543014.

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Oct 2009 23:05

1851 England Census

Civil parish: Liverpool
Occupation:plasterer
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Cothliff 27 born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Lucy Cothliff 24
Sarah Ellen Cothliff 2
Mary J Thornton 8 neice
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2185; Folio: 476; Page: 25; GSU roll: 87190-87192.

Post by **Lesley Black** » 11 Oct 2009 23:40

Hi Susan

Sorry for delay

Yes they're all mine - Edward killed in action was my Great Uncle - his name is recorded on the Thiepval Memorial and last year I was privileged to go to the memorial and lay a wooden cross in his memory.

the Cothliff's - well the jury's out as to whether or not we're connected.

many thanks for taking the time to give me so much info

Lesley