Mercantile Marines - Frederick William Asquith

[MaryA]

Not really, not easy to come by I don't think. I did find an interesting site for a memorial http://www.forcesmemorial.org.uk/roll-of-honour.asp but they aren't on it, perhaps not surprisingly.

Did a google for the name and was pleased to see that this post is top of the list, but also found that there is also a .Channel 4 site for memorials, I assume Bert must have found this and posted the detail sometime in the hopes of getting a hit

I've also discovered an Isle of Man Family History Society forum and posted on there hoping that somebody will be able to tell us how to check
http://forums.iomfhs.im/forums/p/68/155.aspx#155 and also on Isle-of-Man .com http://www.isle-of-man.com/cgi-bin/inte ... l?noframes which seems to have a bit more traffic to the forum.

[daggers]

Mary
Thanks for that. I have sent a query to the IoM register office about 'unidentified' registrations for 1918/19 and will let you all know the answer.

The Channel 4 site on memorials is not very helpful as it will not link to the individual names. It seems to have been left uncared for - a better one is the National Inventory of War Memorials, c/o the IMperial War Museum.

[dickiesam]

Remarkably, there are approximately two entire pages of the GRO Death Index devoted to 'Unknown' deaths in each of the quarters of 1918. There are about 150 entries per page and while many are either male or female, some are not so identified. Also, while approximate ages are entered in many cases, in others it is either 0 or a - (a dash indicating age not assessable). I understand that the 0 does not necessarily mean it is a child.

I believe the same 'Unknown' entry practice would have been followed in Dublin and Belfast, Ireland.

So many deaths without a name..... So sad.
Dickiesam

[daggers]

What a sad finding, but not too surprising given the losses of all nations at that time, at sea as well as on land. The figures must include civilians and servicemen, but there is no way of knowing.
Coroners' papers might have some clues, but where to start? And they are seldom accessible anyway. We may be heading for the end of the story, but do we ever really give up?
D

[MaryA]

I suppose we may end up having to imagine ourselves in the position of a survivor at that time - were they just thankful for being rescued themselves that they got back home before dealing with such matters as death registrations in the area they occurred, in fact might they even have returned to England before the names were taken and the missing were identified?

We'll keep looking for the time being anyway, a contact believes she has a link for IOM Death indexes and will send it to me later today. I'll be back!

[MaryA]

Dickiesam, are you popping into town? would it be possible for you to visit the library on your next trip and check the Irish deaths for the date please?

[daggers]

I have been told there is no Asquith on the Irish death reg. for that period. Thinking on, soldiers were issued with, and wore identity tags, but would (civilian) merchant seamen and engineers? These brave chaps worked either on deck in the wet and wind, or below deck in hot and dirty conditions, and may not have carried much in pockets etc. What would be the chances of identification if found?
D

[MaryA]

That was my thought when I posted earlier.

[Katie]

Hi

I had another look in the Liverpool papers yesterday and I also checked the Daily Post and Liverpool Courier no mention of this collision. There was mention of a ship called the Inniscara being topedoed and only 5 crew were saved. A contact of mine suggested looking in the Ormskirk papers. So I think I will take a trip down there. I cant believe that two members from one family would not be newsworthy. Also sent a e.mail to the GRO asking about registrations for seamen. The reply I got was a standard "how to locate a birth death and marriage"

[MaryA]

Thanks for taking such an interest Katie, I also feel that there should have been a mention in a local newspaper but like you say, it's finding out which one.

I believe Bert intends to see if there are any Church newsletters etc. but isn't sure that they were kept on any sort of regular basis and so doesn't hold out any hopes for this line of research.

[Katie]

Hi
You know what I'm like Mary! I have found this on the National Archives catalogue.

Registry of Shipping and Seamen.
"Registers and indexes of Births, Deaths and Marriages of passengers and Seamen at Sea

Covering dates: 1891 - 1972

Subject to 30 year closure.
Held at the National Archives

[daggers]

Good morning to all who have followed this long thread.
I have received an account of the collision between Cliffburn and Northumberland from a contact in New York who went to the trouble of tracking the report down at his nearest uni library. It is rather long to post here but I have sent it to Bert via PM and will copy it for anyone who sends me a PM with their email address.
The Cliffburn was found to be in the clear. A significant point is that she was holed at the stern - this makes me think that the engine-room staff would have had little or no chance.
D

[MaryA]

I can only say thank you to our members who always show that they go the extra mile to help.

Daggers, I hope to be visiting the Church on Sunday to take a photograph of the plaque so I've sent you my email address, although I think you may already have it, and I'll take a print out of the account with me. It's going to make quite an informative entry for the Asquiths in Bert's book.

Katie - thanks for checking - is this Register and Index different from the one that is on Findmypast? I thought the GRO should rightfully have it too and decided to enquire, but they are apparently "very busy" this morning and disconnected my call!!

[daggers]

Mary
I have sent you a copy of the report, also one has gone to Bert direct.
D

[MaryA]

Thank you, how very interesting and how sad to finally know the demise of the Cliffburn due to fog. Please thank your contact from us all for going to the trouble to look it up and pass on the details.

[MaryA]

Registry of Shipping and Seamen.
"Registers and indexes of Births, Deaths and Marriages of passengers and Seamen at Sea

Finally got through to the GRO who advise that this index should be available under the heading of "Overseas Marine Deaths" at the Record Office, and Findmypast (she also suggested that it would be on Ancestry - I'm very unsure that this is correct) but anyway I believe this is what you searched without success.

[Katie]

Hi Mary.

I dont know if they are seperate indexes. They are in volumes down in Kew I have had them out before when searching for a seaman. I thought they were on some site but I cant locate which. Will keep you updated.

[MaryA]

To conclude this project, Bert has now got details of the sinking of the SS Cliffburn and a newspaper clipping regarding the disaster.

I met Bert and his wife today for a cuppa at St Thomas's Church, and also many other members of the congregation who all were very interested in the research Bert has undertaken. Thanks to your help, he now has background information for everybody on both of the memorials at the Church.

So I took pictures of them as I thought you would be interested in seeing them.

[daggers]

Mary
Thank you for showing the memorial - a fitting tribute to men from what must have been a small community in those days.
D

[daggers]

My New York informant has obtained this from Southampton University!
"22 May. Cliffburn, Belfast, 113,935, 17 years; description: S S, steel; tons: gross 238, net 94; crew: 8; from Maryport to Buncrana; cargo: coal; colliding vessel: S S Northumberland, of London; lives lost: 8; place of casualty: Off the Maidens Rocks, Co Antrim

The source for this information is the Board of Trade return of losses of 1918, in the section on collisions."

He points out that three names from the crew of eight have been identified, and he is on the scent of the other five.

D