Mercantile Marines - Frederick William Asquith

[daggers]

Are the GRO 'Marine Deaths' the same as 'Civilian Deaths at Sea'? If they are different, perhaps someone could look in the latter.
D

[Katie]

Hi.

Looked in the Liverpool Echo for an obituary and any reports of ships being sunk I could not locate any. However, I always check the following years "In Memorium" notices and BINGO.

ASQUITH - "In ever loving memory of my dear husband and son. F and F Asquith, 1st and 2nd Engineers of the SS "Cliffburn", who were lost at sea May 22nd 1918. (Two of the many brave men who died to save For Englands cause" God will remember- From his loving wife and Children, Mrs Asquith, Hope Cottage, Melling, Liverpool.

There needs to be some more research done into this as if they died as a result of war operations they should be included on the CWWG. Also why is their no registration of their deaths?

Mary if you send me a pm with the chaps e.mail I will forward him a copy of the obituary notice.

[dickiesam]

Hi folks,
In view of the fact that the SS Cliffburn did not appear to have sunk or been damaged etc by enemy action, and I had previously come across a reference to the Cliffburn Shipping Company, I googled Cliffburn Shipping Company and found the following at:

http://www.i-law.com/ilaw/basic_search. ... aw+Reports

Looks like the SS Cliffburn sank following a collision in fog with a vessel named Northumberland. Unfortunately, in order to access the actual record one has to be a subscriber. Hope this helps.
Dickiesam

[MaryA]

Wow what a great result! Thanks so much everybody, especially Katie, that obituary even answers the original question of WHY they were commenorated in Melling!!! She/they must have moved from Walton later.

Maybe Bert will subscribe to find out more about the SS Cliffburn, although he could be happy to know just the details of the Asquith's demise.

I will send you a pm Katie and telephone Bert to ensure he catches up on the rest of this thread, he had done previously and sent his thanks, I'm sure he's going to be amazed with you all.

Thanks a lot
Mary

[MaryA]

Had a quick word by phone with Bert who is of course delighted with the result and sends you all his thanks.

With the help of another of our members we had also been able to find out who one of Frederick Asquith's grandchildren was and where he was living and a letter has been sent to him, he hopes for a reply sometime.

For the sake of completeness, he thinks it might be worthwhile for the church to subscribe to the site mentioned by Dickiesam in order to obtain the details of the demise of the ship.

[daggers]

Well done! I shall enquire about the War Graves Commission policy but fear that a collision may not qualify - I have had a refusal for a sailor who died in a ship which burned in a Russian harbour.
D

[dickiesam]

Hi all,
Delighted we were able to bring this to a satisfactory conclusion. Just thought I would add this snippet. It is actually an extract from my own notes on a family member who died in Liverpool during the Blitz of first week of May 1941. His body was never found or identified but that of his brother, killed the same night, was found two days later and there is an entry in the GRO Death Index. However, for the missing brother there was no entry and I was stumped for a while. Subsequent research revealed the following.....

If his body was not found or never identified:
A) His name could not be recorded by the GRO at the time of 'presumed' death.
B) A Death Cert could not be issued until a period of 7 years had elapsed and then only upon application to the Courts under what is known as a Benjamin Order. His widow would have needed a Death Cert should she have wanted to remarry or if there was an 'estate' to be properly probated.
C) If his body had been found but not identified, his death would have been recorded in the GRO Index under 'Unknown', but no Death Cert issued.

This would explain why we can't find a death registration for the Asquith father and son. Their bodies were probably never found. As they died as the result of an 'accident ', they would not be considered as MIA.
Dickiesam

[daggers]

Lloyd's Reports can probably be consulted at the Maritime Museum's archives dept, if anyone is going there, in the 1919 volume/s. They may have more about the incident, too.

[MaryA]

Can't believe just how knowledgeable you all are, thanks again for the extras.

[daggers]

Just got the following which, though not from an official spokesman, should be taken as authoritative guidance:

"As civilians, Mercantile Marine men are not eligible for commemoration except under certain circumstances.

Those circumstances are "where death was caused by the increased risks due to war conditions and if confirmed by the Registrar General of Shipping". The qualifying dates are 04.08.14 to 11.11.18.

This is usually taken to be as a result of enemy action. Sinkings due to weather or accidents are not usually counted."

I think that anyone who wishes to pursue this should take it up directly with CWGC.
D

[bertdowell]

Thank you to everyone who has been involved in tracing the father and son from Melling St Thomas War Memorial. To see the obiturary from his widow is like a dream come true. I am waiting to hear from his Great Grandson, and have put one of our locals on to trying to trace Hope Cottage in Melling.

Thanks again, Bert Dowell, Melling Church.

[bertdowell]

Just to let everyone know that I have been contacted by Eric Asquith, grandson of Frederick William Asquith. He did not know that his grandfather was listed on the Melling Church War Memorial. He is hoping to visit the Church on Wednesday 5th August (the church is open for lunch between 12 and 2 on the first Wednesday in each month).

It is a complete "Eureka" moment as it turns out that Frederick Williams Son, Raymond, Eric's father would have been celebrating his 100th birthday on Friday, 7th August, 2009.

Thank you all for the tenacity in tracing this matter.

You will all be welcome to come and see the look on his face when he sees his granddad's memorial. Just proves "We Will Remember Them".

Bert.

[MaryA]

Today certainly has been a celebration day for you Bert, a double whammy.

As I mentioned I will try to come along and see the memorial and your book - even though you say it's only "a couple of plaques", it's what we've been working toward and got the result for, that's what matters to us, isn't it crew?

One of the mottos of our regulars on here is very much applicable to this post.

Lest We Forget

[daggers]

A contact on the Great War Forum has sent me this which he found by Googling:

"The collision took place in the Irish Channel on May 22, 1918, when the Cliffburn was sunk and all of her crew were drowned. The Northumberland also sustained some damage. The Northumberland is a steel screw steamship of 12160 tons gross tons gross and 7861 tons net, 530 ft. long, and she was on a voyage from New York to Liverpool in convoy, carrying troops and Laden "with a cargo of general goods", was in Liverpool Bay near the Bar light-vessel. The wind was Northerly, light, the weather hazy, and the tide about high water slack. The Talthybius, following the vessel ahead, heading about S. 31 deg. E., was making about 13 knots; the regulation lights, including a stern light, were duly exhibited and burning brightly; and a good look-out was being kept."

D

[Katie]

Hi Daggers.

I could not find any mention of this collision in the Liverpool Echo/Evening Express I suppose they will have kept this report hush hush? I looked from 22nd May 1918 right up to June 1918 I will look in the other local papers to see if I can pick up any reports. There would have been a Board of Trade Inquiry. I will have to pay a little visit to the maritme archives. Mary with both chaps being 1st and 2nd Enginners they will have to have qualified The records for competency certificate for Engineers are listed under BT 139-BT142 date c1861 to 1921 these are held at the National Archives. With regards to seaman who died at sea and not being recorded on the Marine Deaths. I have enquired with the General Register Office why seamen who I know have died whilst at sea and I have a list of them taken from the Wages and effects of deceased seaman are not recorded. I was informed that they should be. I think I will have to enquire again and send them the evidence.

Well done everyone

[daggers]

Here is a bit more:
'Cliffburn was apparently of 238 grt, so too small for Starke-Schell*.

Per Lloyd's War Losses "In collision with NORTHUMBERLAND off the Maidens**, at 12:34pm on May 22, 1918. Sailed May 21, 1918, Mayport*** - Buncrana, Co. Donegal, coal" '

* Starke-Schell: publishers of lists of ships over a certain tonnage.

** The Maidens: a group of rocks six miles NE by E from Larne, Co. Antrim.

Could this be the reason for the lack of an ENGLISH death registration. Any experts on the Northern Irish system?????

***Final comment tonight: could 'Mayport' mean 'Maryport'? EDITED: My informant confirms that MARYPORT was intended.
G'night all.
D

[daggers]

A new morning, a new thought. The Maidens being described as off the coast of northern Ireland, any bodies swept away in the strong currents of the North Channel could have been washed up in NI, the Republic [as it became], Isle of Man or Scotland; this could account for the lack of an English death registration.
Any offers to look for the Asquiths in those quarters?
Alternatively, unidentified bodies would be subject to inquests; finally, the bodies might never have been found, trapped in the wreck.

[Hilary]

Perhaps one of our members in Ireland could look up the death in the Irish civil registration indexes. As it was before 1922 the indexes are I believe the same.

Ed Oficer

[MaryA]

I can't believe all the extra information being found by you all. From a name with no information to what he has now, Bert is going to have quite a lot of detail for his book. This will be a great memorial to our men.

[daggers]

Update:
1] The official number of Cliffburn was 113935, which may be helpful if anyone wishes to try and trace more about the ship and its crew. There are registration details at the National Archives, Kew, but not online. The ship was built in 1901.

2] The only Asquith death registered in Scotland in 1918/19 was a lance corporal in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, kia in France.

3] Any clues on access to Isle of Man registrations?

D