Mercantile Marines - Frederick William Asquith

[MaryA]

The Treasurer of St Thomas, Melling is undertaking a project similar to some of our other members. On the Memorial at the church are two names that he's had little success in discovering why they are listed on the memorial in Melling. Can anybody help in finding a reason - would they have attended that church or did they live in the area earlier?

He discovered what he believes to be the family on the 1911 census where they lived in the Evered Avenue area, Aintree/Walton?

From the index I have found these names

Frederick William Asquith 51
Ada Louise Asquith 38
Fred W 15
Minnie G 9
Dorethy 4
Edna 2
Raymond 1
Jane Wellen Price 54

Frederick William the father was a Marine Engineer

I've tried "Lancashire" for birthplace and only Ada Louise, Dorethy and Edna seem to be confirmed as having been born there in Liverpool, Frederick Senior was born Beverley, Yorkshire and Frederick Junior and Minnie were born in Hull, Yorkshire.

Young Raymond was born in Fazakerley. Unfortunately the birth entry for him was Q4 1901 West Derby so just before the mother's maiden names were given.

The two Frederick William Asquiths are the ones he is concerned with, both were Mercantile Marines and both were killed in 1918.

Hoping to get the exact date of death sometime in the future, which might help to identify a ship that went down about that date.

He hasn't found the family on the 1901 census.

The question is - Why are they on a Memorial in Melling? What connects them to St Thomas's?

[daggers]

Some thoughts: a marine engineer could be land based, working on construction or repair of ships, or sea-going , probably as an officer in the team of 3 or 4 engineer officers. They would be qualified, almost certainly by apprenticeship. Liverpool would attract numbers of such men in those days as THE seaport.
The term Mercantile Marine applied to the whole of what later became known as the Merchant Navy. Individuals were not referred to as marines.
D

[Hilary]

I found them on the 1901 census in Hull. Ada Frederick's wife was born in Liverpool she was a lot younger than him. I found they married in Toxteth Park in 1890 and found Ada and her younger sister Lily in the 1891 census. Tracked back to find Ada's parents thinking maybe that was the clue and found the family in 1881 in Toxteth Park father born Barnstaple mother Lymington so that didn't help!.

Ed Officer

PS Can't find them on the CWGC site - I don't think they have Merchant Navy deaths for the First World War.

[daggers]

There are many, many Mercantile/Merchant Marine deaths on CWGC, but no Asquiths that I could see. The key researcher might try his local newspaper archive and his parish magazine files (if any).
D

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Checked the GRO Marine Death Indices 1914 to 1919 and didn't find any Asquiths.

Did find a Fred in the GRO Army Death Indices for 1917:
Fred Asquith - Pte - 47456 - YLI (Yorkshire Light Infantry?) - 1917 - X.41 127.

Also found an Asquith in the Royal Navy deaths but he wasn't a Fred.

The only other Fred' Asquith death, and this fitted the father, was:
Deaths Jun 1916: Asquith, Fred - 56 - Oldham - 8d - 747.

Cheers,
Dickiesam

[Katie]

Hi Mary

I will check the Mercantile Marine deaths for World war one while Im at the Library Tomorrow

[MaryA]

Thank you everybody for your thoughts and efforts.

"Bert" had tried the CWGC but without success, but then as he believes that those mentioned on the Memorial more than likely didn't survive the sinking of his ship, so there wouldn't be a grave.

These are the last two entries on the Memorial that he has left to find out about so I think he will have tried local documents.

His file has been loaned to somebody but he will retrieve it in the next few days hopefully and he should be able to provide an accurate date in 1918 when the deaths are noted to have occurred. He wonders if this will provide a clue if a ships sinking at that date could be found.

He would be grateful for any look ups you are able to do.

Thank you.

[daggers]

CWGC include those lost at sea with no known grave - many are recorded on the Tower Hill Memorial in London.
There is a book with a title like 'Dictionary of Disasters at Sea', which I think is organised by date. Someone may be able to look at it once we have a date.
D

[MaryA]

Have again spoken with Bert as he checked the memorial yesterday while he was at the Church.

It began as a hand-written list but over the years was commemorated as a bronze plaque hung at the lychgate in 1921. Also another for those remembered from WWII.

But in the 1970's some vandalism occurred and the plaque was brought inside for safe keeping, but I believe still displayed for all to see.

Since 2000 Bert has been compiling information about the servicemen so that there is something to tell the young Scouts who ask about the names they read out on Memorial Day.

Anyway back to details - the dates of death for both father and son are 22nd May, 1918, so if anybody is able to discover just what event might have occurred then, we'd be grateful.

Thanks a lot.

[dickiesam]

Hi MaryA,
Don't know if you have seen this site? The link takes you to a listing of merchant shipping losses in WW1, 1917 to 1918. May be of help?

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1LossesBrMS1918.htm

Cheers,
Dickiesam

[MaryA]

The nearest to the date is the Chatham - 21st May, 1918 http://uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/1234.html but not definite.

I'm beginning to think a lot of Katie's suggestion of a possible death in the flu pandemic that year, it might answer why they aren't recorded in our death records or any War Graves.

[dickiesam]

Hello MaryA
Been thinking about the possible Flu Epidemic theory. The epidemic was in two waves. The first, in the Spring of 1918, actually killed relatively few people so their deaths would have been officially recorded by the GRO. Even in the Autumn when the virus returned in it's extreme deadly form and 1000s died in the UK, I don't think there was a moratorium on registration of the deceased.

I still feel it's probable they died due to enemy action or accident at sea.
Dickiesam

[MaryA]

so their deaths would have been officially recorded by the GRO.

Even if they died overseas?

Because I don't find a death entry in the remainder of 1918 for either of them and you and Katie checked the Marine index, so I believe we have to think of alternatives.

[daggers]

Here is an offering from the Great War Forum where I posted the query about lost vessels on that date:
"CLAN MATHESON
Cayzer, Irvine & Co.; 1917; Sir J. Laing & Sons; 5,960 tons; 405x53-5x33-5; 401 nhp; triple-expansion engines. The British cargo ship Clan Matheson was sunk in a collision on May 22nd, 1918, in 40° 32' N., 49° 10' W., while on a voyage from New Orleans and New York to Nantes. She was carrying barley, oats and steel."
There could be more to come, but SKS is ploughing through some lists. I'll be back if he finds more.
PS The listing linked in the earlier post gives only those vessels lost by enemy action, so the sinking after collision makes the Clan Matheson more of a possibility. Anyone got a history of the Clan Line?
D

[Katie]

Hi Mary

I will look in the local papers tomorrow to see if there is any reports of ship being sunk due to enemy action I will see if I can pick up any obits in the paper

[MaryA]

Daggers, thank you for that information, somewhere they must have been on a crew list and notified the family, it certainly sounds possible - but would they have been commemorated on a War Memorial? maybe so I suppose since they would have been involved in war work.

Is this what you meant? Cayzer, Irvine

Katie, thanks for your offer also, it will be easier with a definite date to work from.

[daggers]

Clan Line and Cayzer Irvine history is entangled - google one or the other for a bit of unscrambling!
Another vessel has been suggested - much smaller, but same date of loss: the Red Rose.
D

[daggers]

A comment from the other forum:
"Sorry, no MM or RN person called Asquith was lost during WWI, in my files anyway, all based on "The Cross of Sacrifice". Although there was a Phillip Asquith lost with [HMS] Queen Mary, but that was in 1916".

Seems we are stuck for now, but the newspaper might help.
D

[Katie]

Anouther thought to indentify them woould be the Mercantile Marine Medals issued to Merchant Seaman. These are available on microfiche at The National Archives under refernce BT339 this would give us their discharge number. I have searched some crew lists which are available on Acestry they are showing up on any of them.

Fingers crossed the relatives put an obituary in the paper

[MaryA]

Katie, please explain "Discharge Number". Do they get one of these even though they died?