GARDNER/COLVIN "O What A Tangled Web"

Post by **Heli** » 17 Jul 2009 17:13

For some time now I have been trying to trace the father of WILLIAM GARDNER,but it looks as if Williams mother has been a bit naughty. This is my first request and a bit long winded but hopefully someone can help.

William's birth certificate shows his date of birth as 14/1/1908, fathers name ARTHUR GARDNER, occupation Marine Fireman, mothers name ELIZABETH GARDNER formerly COLVIN.
However, I have been unable to find a record of the Gardner/Colvin marriage and other information suggests that no marriage took place. To complicate matters further William's marriage certificate shows his fathers name as William Gardner (deceased), occupation Seaman.

William had a younger brother, John, born 1912, whose birth certificate shows fathers name as Alfred, this is crossed out and altered to ARTHUR GARDNER, occupation Marine Fireman, mothers name ELIZABETH GARDNER late COLVIN formerly CONWAY, his marriage certificate also shows fathers name as William Gardner (deceased), occupation Seafarer.

Elizabeth had three earlier children, GEORGE born 1895, and ADELINE (aka ADA) born 1898. Their birth certificates don't show fathers name or occupation. They both used the name COLVIN , George until he was killed in WW1 and Ada until her marriage in 1919. I cannot find a birth record for CHARLES, but his marriage certificate suggests he was born in 1901, it also shows his fathers name as CHARLES GARDNER (deceased) occupation General Labourer. Possibly Charles's father had a different surname and this is why the birth record can't be found.

I had hoped that the 1911 census would be of help, but this shows Elizabeth Colvin, married as head, living with children George aged 16, Ada 13, Charles 10 and William 3. All children are listed as COLVIN. I now feel that all Elizabeths children were illegitimate, with possibly at least three different fathers.

The CWGC site records George Colvin as "Son of Elizabeth Gardner (formerly Colvin)". However, in George's army records it shows that "Mrs Colvin applied for the medals of her late son on 13/11/1922". This was just over a month before Elizabeth Gardner aged 50, widow, fathers name George Colvin (deceased), married Arthur William Walters aged 54, widower, occupation Adjuster of Weights and Measures.

For the birth certificates of William and John, Elizabeth made her mark but appears to have signed the 1911 census.

I don't know if Elizabeth was trying to confuse the authorities (it was possible for an unmarried mother to be committed to a "lunatic asylum" as being "feeble minded" at that time) or whether she was trying to appear respectable. Whichever, she hasn't helped my search.

I understand that LIVRO don't have any affiliation records for this period.

If anyone can give me any information or point me in the right direction to find William's father, I would be very grateful.

Heli.

Post by **MaryA** » 17 Jul 2009 22:32

This is very difficult, hoping to get more suggestions from the crew, but I'm wondering if Elizabeth possibly gave a made up name for William's father, Arthur, decided to continue to use the name Gardner as if she were married, then tried to remember the name she had given when she came to register the next child and failed at first.

No husband in evidence although she calls herself "Mrs" and status Wife in the 1901 census.

Post by **Tina** » 18 Jul 2009 08:47

Hi Mary
No help from me as yet, have read post through 3 times.

Hi Heli you are spot on about a tangled web.
You have done so well gathering all the details.

We need all the big guns for this one

Tina

Post by **MaryA** » 18 Jul 2009 09:28

I'm also confused how she manages to fit the "Conway" name into it all, I double checked with a birth certificate I have and the wording "late COLVIN formerly CONWAY" should mean that her maiden name was Conway and a previous married name being Colvin.

It's seems to be confirmed by earlier censuses that her maiden name was Colvin, I suspect that finding herself in a situation with two children it was easier to become "Mrs", but still using the name she was known by.

Post by **Tina** » 18 Jul 2009 09:35

Hi Mary
I haven't got to 1901 yet, too busy watching rugby Kiwis v Oz..
Which surname did she use please?

This is a corker..

Tina oxo

Post by **MaryA** » 18 Jul 2009 10:29

Subject to confirmation from Heli I believe this to be the family

35 Sussex Street, Toxteth Park - all born Liverpool
Richard and Ellenur Conlan and their children in part of the house
and trancribed as Conlan
Mrs Colvan Wife M 28
George son 6
Ada daur 3
Adelina Mother Wid 75
Christina Matthews Boarder S 30 Ropeworker
RG13; Piece: 3433; Folio: 108; Page: 10

1891
148 Henderson Street, Toxteth Park
William J Irvine Head M 25 Baker Liverpool
Emily Wife M 24 "
George Charles son 4 "
William J son 3 "
Emily daur 2 "
Adelaide Colvin Wife's Mother Widow 60 Plymouth
Elizabeth Colvin Sister Single 17 Charity Liverpool
Frederick Irvine Son 1 Liverpool
RG12; Piece: 2925; Folio 133; Page 34

1881
29 Clive Street, Toxteth Park
Adelaide Colvin Head M 48 Charwoman Devonshire Devonport
Elizabeth Colvin daur 7 Scholar Lancashire Liverpool
RG11; Piece: 3644; Folio: 6; Page: 6

1871 (transcribed Calvin)
1 House 8 Court Brassey Street, Toxteth Park
George Colvin Head M 37 Shipwright Liverpool
Adelaide Wife M 36 Devonport Devon
Emily daur 4 Liverpool
Eliza daur 1 "
RG10; Piece: 3796; Folio: 19; Page: 29

Post by **Heli** » 18 Jul 2009 11:52

Thanks Mary. Yes you have it spot on, didn't give all these details in the original as it was alredy so long, and I did want people to read it to the end. You will appreciate that I have now run out of ideas.

Heli.

Post by **Heli** » 18 Jul 2009 12:16

Commiserations to Tina, and thank you for looking at my problem.

Heli.

Post by **Tina** » 18 Jul 2009 12:34

No probs Heli
I thought I'd ask Mary, being lazy, saves me scrolling around.

Tina

Many thanks Mary for wonderful census info.

Post by **Heli** » 18 Jul 2009 13:03

Hello again Mary. Further confirmation that we are looking at the same person. The certificate for the Walters/Gardner marriage shows William James Irvine and Emily Irvine as witnesses.
The Conway on John's birth certificate has me confused.

Heli

Post by **Tina** » 19 Jul 2009 07:52

Hello All
Just to add re surname
When William James Irvine married Emily her surname was COLVIN
Tockie Park dec 1885.

The constant is Tox Park & Adelina snr.

There's a birth for a Charles Gardener june qtr 1901 Tox Park.

Adelina was listed as married in 1881 but no George.
I'm wondering if he had died?
W Dby 1874 aged 41 yrs (fits in with age in 1871)

Tina

Post by **Heli** » 19 Jul 2009 12:24

Thanks for further information Tina.
I have Emily as a Colvin. Will obtain the Charles Gardener birth certificate to see if that is useful. With all the other "mistakes" on certificates it is a possibility. John's wedding certificate uses Gardener throughout. I did find a Charles Hutchison Gardner in 1901, but the details for mother and father didn't match.
I have George Colvin's death as 1874, so perhaps we can blame Elizabeths behaviour on her being brought up in a single parent household.

Heli

Post by **Tina** » 21 Jul 2009 08:31

Hi Heli
Just two quick questions, was Elizabeth in Tox Park in 1911 census?
Have you had any contact from the offspring of the her children?

Tks
Tina

Post by **Heli** » 21 Jul 2009 12:21

Hi Tina. Hope you have recovered from the rugby result.
Yes, Elizabeth was in Toxteth Park in 1911 and until her death.
Unfortunately I have lost touch with my cousins so can't call on them for help.

Heli.

Post by **Heli** » 27 Jul 2009 12:30

Thanks to Tina, I now have the birth certificate for Charles Gardner (Gardener). This shows his father as Arthur Gardener, occupation Marine Fireman, and his mother Elizabeth Gardener formerly Colvin. So birth certificates for Charles, William and John all have the same details.
It looks as if Charles just repeated his own details for those of his father on his marriage certificate.
The birth certificate also confirmed that we were using the correct 1901 census details.

Heli

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Jul 2009 14:01

Well if Elizabeth was Colvin at the time of the census in 1901 and Gardener only three months or so later at the time of the birth registration, IF she married then there's a very short space of time to do so and there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they did so.

Since all three children were registered with the name Gardener, perhaps there was an Arthur/Alfred/William but he and Elizabeth just didn't marry.

Post by **Heli** » 27 Jul 2009 16:25

Thanks Mary, I am more than ever convinced that no marriage took place until Elizabeth married Arthur William Walters in 1922, and that all her children were illegitimate.
As Elizabeth worked as a charwoman, I feel that she would have needed further support to bring up five children and hoped that someone could point me in the right direction to finding if she received any payment from the father.

Heli

Post by **MaryA** » 27 Jul 2009 20:16

Unfortunately the CSA wasn't in existence until considerably later

But on a more serious note, check the National Archives to see if there were any Filiation orders. Do you know if they may have been baptised? at those dates it's unlikely that you will find this out from the IGI, you should perhaps check the churches near where they lived, and if you find any evidence of this then see in the Minute Books (think that might be what they are called) if there is any mention of whether they applied for Parish Relief.

Post by **Katie** » 27 Jul 2009 23:12

My great grandmother had 7 children between 1898 and 1920 with John Bannon my great grandfather and never married. She even claimed to be married to get a seperation allowance while he served in the first World War she had to confess to not being married when he died in 1920. There are affiliation Records at the Liverpool Record Office cant remember offhand when they start. Dont you just love family history

Post by **Heli** » 28 Jul 2009 15:19

I will try the suggestions from Mary and Katie. I did ask LIVRO earlier about affiliation orders but they were not very helpful. Perhaps when I come back from holiday I might take a trip to Liverpool and ask the Help Group to show me the way round the records office.

Heli.