Searching for John LLewellyn

[DavidWall]

My brother and I are searching for our Grandfather in about 1914-1920.
His name was John Llewellyn, occupation Boatswain.
Does anyone have any information with trade directories or electoral rolls that might be able to pinpoint his address.
He married in 1915 and I am trying to locate his wifes daughter who would have been about 8 at the date of marriage.
Any information appreciated.

Dave Wall

[erika]

Hi Dave


In Gore's 1914 Directory there is only one John Llewellyn listed, but no occupation is given

Address 36 Kirkland Avenue, Higher Tranmere

Cheers
Erika

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

What was the address on the marriage certificate and his age and father's name and occupation? Do you know if he was born in Liverpool?

[dickiesam]

Hi guys and welcome,
In addition to the queries by MaryA, do you know the name of his wife, who appears to have been a widow if she had an 8 year old daughter. I can't find a Cheshire or Lancashire marriage in 1915 for John.
Cheers,
Dickiesam

[DavidWall]

What was the address on the marriage certificate and his age and father's name and occupation? Do you know if he was born in Liverpool?

His address was 6 Aspinall St, Kirkdale and his wife Nellie Woods was at 25 Latham St, Kirkdale (these are only a couple of streets apart). I have no idea where he was born as I have not yet traced him on FreeBMD (there are too many - or insufficient data).

His wife is identified as a spinster on the marriage cert but she would have had a 7yr old with her (so presumably - either JL was the father or the childs father was deceased but no previous marriage seems to have surfaced.

They married Q3 1815 in West Derby.

His fathers details are also John Llewellyn (deceased) - Farmer.

We have no other information on either John Llewellyn, however John and Nellies first (legal children - twins) were born at 29 Hesketh Street, Toxteth Park in 1919.

What also puts a bit of confusion into things is Nellies death certificate which identifies her as Nellie Julia Llewellyn (age 74) in 1948 and has my mother as the informant (confirmed by the address of informant on cert).
There is no Nellie Julia Woods born in FreeBMD about 1874.

We believe my mother (Joyce Llewellyn) to have been born in Penarth (family memories - no real proof) in about Sep 1908 - however there is no record of such person.

Since her mother and her future father didn't marry till 1915 then of course she would have either had her mothers surname of Woods or whatever her real fathers name was up until the time her mom & JL married.

Again - from family recollections (my brother) - my dad used to say that my mom was stood up in school and the class was told that from that day on she was to be known as Joyce Llewellyn (probably sometime in 1915).

I realise this is a wild card - but we are trying to locate any school records from the 1914/15 period - probably around the Kirkdale area - that might identify a Joyce ??? changing her name to Llewellyn.

I think that about covers the whole saga at the moment.

Thanks for your time and comments.

Dave Wall

[dickiesam]

Hello Dave,
Nellie is sometimes a familiar form of Eleanor or even Ellen. What was her father's name on the John L marriage cert and what age did she give in 1915? There are several Eleanor births in the early 1870s. With her father's name we might find a match in a census.

There's a Nellie Woods in the 1911 and her age fits:
WOODS, NELLIE - BOARDER - WIDOW - F - 38 - WAITRESS - bn LIVERPOOL, LANCS.
Address = 4 ANDERSON STREET, BLACKPOOL.

If you access the actual census page it should tell you how many children this Nellie had. Perhaps young Joyce was with g.parents etc?

Regards,
Dickiesam

[Tina]

Hi Dave welcome
More questions..
I presume they were full age on marr cert?
Did it list Nellie's Dad?
Her daughter was probably illigt, this is Joyce yes?

Best wishes & good luck

Tina

[DavidWall]

What was her father's name on the John L marriage cert and what age did she give in 1915? There are several Eleanor births in the early 1870s. With her father's name we might find a match in a census.

There's a Nellie Woods in the 1911 and her age fits:
WOODS, NELLIE - BOARDER - WIDOW - F - 38 - WAITRESS - bn LIVERPOOL, LANCS.
Address = 4 ANDERSON STREET, BLACKPOOL.

If you access the actual census page it should tell you how many children this Nellie had. Perhaps young Joyce was with g.parents etc?

1. Her father was George Woods (deceased Wool Merchant)
2. Her age on the Cert was 37 (thus giving probable birth in 1874)
3. How did you get the info on Nellie Woods - I only see nellie Woods age 38 in Fylde, Lancashire - there is no indication she was a boarder, a widow, a waitress or of her address.
That info is surely only available if you get the census page.

Both of their ages were 37 on the certificate - he was a bachelor and she a spinster - married in the registry office in West Derby.

Thanks

Dave Wall

[MaryA]

I wonder if she was related to the people she was boarding with in Blackpool - Charles Farrest (Forrest) age 38 and Annie Gertrude Farrest age 35. These were both born Lincolnshire if it helps any and they were living in Yorkshire in 1901, with a brother in law called John R Staniland, born 1888, also Gainsbro' Lincolnshire and boarders.

Do the names mean anything to you?

That info is surely only available if you get the census page.

I suspect Dickiesam has kindly spared just the one credit to read the transcript, but not accessed the image itself as that costs more.

[dickiesam]

Hi David,
MaryA is correct. Because I am by nature extremely curious, I 'invested' all of 10 credits to get the transcription of her entry. For 30 credits you can access and download the full census page but my budget wouldn't run to that. And, the 1911 census pages now tell you how many children were born alive and how many are still living.

However, I now think it is possible that if she had been a widow then Woods may not her maiden name. It is also possible she was deserted and went back to her old name. I've two instances of that, where the 'original' spouse was still alive and the woman used her maiden name in a census and called herself a widow!

Still looking!
Dickiesam

[MaryA]

I'm hoping that Dickiesam is wrong and that her maiden name really was Wood/s since she gave her father's name with that. "Widow" could have been given as a face saver if it was known that she had a child.

I have a couple of census entries you might like to keep on file, Merchant not being a common occupation it's worth considering anyway.

1871
40 Devonshire Road, Toxteth Park
George W J (or T) Wood Head Mar 26 Commissions Merchant Greece British Subject
Agnes Wife M 25 Merchant's Wife Lancashire Liverpool
Agnes G daur 1 month " daughter " "
Margaret Rea Visitor Unm 21 Merchant's daughter Lancashire Liverpool
Ann Martin Serv. Unm 48 Nurse Domestic Servant Scotland
Eliza Desoer Serv Unm 19 Cook Domestic Servant Lancashire Liverpool
RG10; Piece: 3803; Folio: 144; Page: 9

1881
6 Serpentine Road, Great Crosby
George Wood Head M 36 General Merchant Greece Brit. Sub.
Agnes Wife M 35 Lancashire Liverpool
Alice daur 7 Scholar " "
Nellie daur 6 " " "
Linda " 5 " "
Willie son 3 " "
Aline daur 1 " "
Mary Ann Foxton? Servant Widow 48 Domestic Servant Cook " Bickerstaffe
Elizabeth Davies " Unm 21 " " Housemaid Herefordshire Leominster
Ann Hedge " " 17 " " Nurse Lancashire Liverpool
RG11; Piece: 3696; Folio: 40; Page: 74

[DavidWall]

Hi David,
MaryA is correct. Because I am by nature extremely curious, I 'invested' all of 10 credits to get the transcription of her entry.

However, I now think it is possible that if she had been a widow then Woods may not her maiden name. It is also possible she was deserted and went back to her old name.

dickiesam, you really are very kind - as well as being rather naughty - I appreciate your contribution immensly, however using up your own credits like that was certainly not expected.

Much appreciated

Dave Wall

[DavidWall]

I'm hoping that Dickiesam is wrong and that her maiden name really was Wood/s since she gave her father's name with that. "Widow" could have been given as a face saver if it was known that she had a child.

OK - lets come clean with 'all' the info I have.

MaryA - yes - we've traced the entries for GWT Wood & Agnes (RAE) and followed them and their children thru till their deaths.
Nellie WOOD leaves home between 1891 & 1901 & I believe we find her as a Governess aged 25 (boarder) in Crick Leaze (Somerset). This Nellie certainly gives her birth in Seaforth, Lancs.

Family memories inserted here. (My Father telling my Brother). Nellie used to play the piano (very well) - it was believed she was a Nurse somewhere in London (can't prove that bit) - Now the interesting bit.
It is believed the name Hamilton comes into the family somewhere.


This really peeves me off - I logged in to reply to this message - I took so long in entering a whole swag of detail - then the system tells me to log in again and I'm presented with a clean sheet & lose all I've entered.
\

My mom supplied the deatils for Nellies death cert and gives her name as Nellie Julia Llewellyn - we believe that mom always said she came from Penarth. In the 1911 there is a Nellie J Hamilton with a 2yr old Joyce (Born Birmingham).
But - she is a widow and can't find a record of a marriage nor a death of a Hamilton within the previous 3 yrs in any of the likely locations.
There is a boarder - Arthur Kelsey also living with her born Birmingham.
He is recorded as single.

The next record we have is a 1914 Kelly's with Nellie J Hamilton a shopkeeper in Penarth - no school details remain for this area or period so we're screwed there.

Nellie (Woods) then gets married in West Derby in 1915 - no mention of the Julia bit - no family members as witnesses - no mention of Hamilton.

It all gets rather messy - but this is the time that young Joyce gets her name changed to Llewellyn - somewhere around September 1915.

Dave Wall - posting this now in case the thing gets lost again.

[dickiesam]

Hi Dave,
Naughty or not... Curiosity sometimes costs credits! No worries.

Now, that Nellie Hamilton you mentioned with a daughter Joyce aged 2 and born 1908 in Birmingham... according to the GRO Index Nellie's maiden name was Davies so it looks like she was married. I don't think she is your Nellie.

Re the family lore about a governess, being a good pianist, and possibly a nurse... all three go together in my mind. A 'junior' governess was often a nursery-maid/nurse-maid/nurse in a large household and a 'mature' governess would be expected to able to play piano, even teach piano. It is possible that she worked for a Hamilton family at some stage?
In the meantime I'll keep looking.

But a tip before I go.. if you know you are going to be putting in a lengthy post filled with detail, do it as a draft in Word first. Then copy and paste into the post window. Then if the post fails or your connection drops out you will have the draft in reserve.
Cheers,
Dickiesam

PS: Because John L is described as a boatswain, an occupation with strong sea-going connections I found this in the 1911:
MILITARY - LLEWELLYN, JOHN WILLIAM - 1876 - 35 - Overseas Royal Navy.
Don't worry Dave, didn't spend credits this time!

[MaryA]

I see you've already done what we were trying to do and that is look all round the problem to see what other angles you could come to it from and I see how you get to the thought of schools. Certainly most schools kept log books of day to day events, even who was off ill on which days or home events which might have an impact on the child's school life. I would imagine that a change of name would certainly be entered in the log book as well as the Admittance Books requiring to be changed.

The Society has compiled a list of available school registers at the Record Office http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/L ... chools.htm but it would need somebody on hand to go through those in the appropriate area. Obviously this wouldn't be a job for yourself from Sydney, do you have friends/relatives here in England who could do this for you? If you thought of hiring somebody to do this research on your behalf I could let you have details of someone who would be reliable, send me a pm about it, obviously can't guarantee a result as it would depend on what was there.

It is believed the name Hamilton comes into the family somewhere.

Has this been mentioned in hindsight after you discovered the census entry? or did you search for the census based on somebody's actual knowledge of this name? If you are like me you will keep going back and asking them in the hope of jogging their memory for another little snippet of information.

[MaryA]

PS: Because John L is described as a boatswain, an occupation with strong sea-going connections I found this in the 1911:
MILITARY - LLEWELLYN, JOHN WILLIAM - 1876 - 35 - Overseas Royal Navy.

Trying to pin this one down as to birthplace, but it's not responding to Wales, England etc. I thought about trying all the counties in Wales but I'll leave that to you to do, it didn't respond to Glamorgan either but two others did so I don't know if this entry in 1901 is appropriate or not.

District Calypso, Vessels, Devon
John Llewellyn 24 Stoker Glamorganshire Llanpnws?

Sorry the top of the page is missing so be sure but I believe he would be unmarried.

[DavidWall]

Now, that Nellie Hamilton you mentioned with a daughter Joyce aged 2 and born 1908 in Birmingham... according to the GRO Index Nellie's maiden name was Davies so it looks like she was married. I don't think she is your Nellie.

PS: Because John L is described as a boatswain, an occupation with strong sea-going connections I found this in the 1911:
MILITARY - LLEWELLYN, JOHN WILLIAM - 1876 - 35 - Overseas Royal Navy.
Don't worry Dave, didn't spend credits this time!

Under what did you find the nellie above - marriage - when. ??

I also saw the John L and I think I need to find his birth (if poss).

Thanks for the Info

Dave Wall

[DavidWall]

It is believed the name Hamilton comes into the family somewhere.

Has this been mentioned in hindsight after you discovered the census entry? or did you search for the census based on somebody's actual knowledge of this name?

The name came from my brother some time ago and we've looked for any type of tyein - marriage to a wood/s to no real benefit.
It was only when I was checking the 1911 for a Joyce aged about 2 with a mother Nellie born withing 5yrs of 1874 that I discovered the Nellie J Hamilton entry.

Bye the way - thanks for the JL aged 24 in 1901 - I think I have found him previously but needed to find his fathers name to double check.

Many Thanks for the info

Dave Wall

[MaryA]

Under what did you find the nellie above - marriage - when. ??

I think Dickiesam means that he found the birth of Joyce Davies Hamilton Q4 1908 Kings Norton 6c 399. It's often assumed that a middle name like that derives from the mother's maiden name, however it could come from previous generations, without a birth certificate it would be difficult to know.

[Hilary]

I doubt very much if scholl admission registers would help very much.

They tend to record the date of admission date of birth child's name and address. Sometimes the child's father is recorded and they are supposed to record prvious school and when they left and were tehy went to ie work or another school.

If the child's name was changed they may have just crossed out the first surname and inserted another but probably no further information. Without the name of a school you could spend a lot of time and money looking for a needle in a haystack.

Ed Officer