Census confusion 1871 John & Elizabeth Winrow

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Have 1861 census for John 29, & Elizabeth, 32 Jane 6, Mary 4, James 14mths. RG9/2650 page 22 Scotland Municipality Elizabeth born in Bold. Lancashire
1881 census has them also in Scotland municipality Laurence St? John, Elizabeth, James 21, John 18 - my gr Grandfather, born in Liverpool, Thomas 14, Jane 11, Ellen,9 all born in St Helens. RG11/3593 page 90.

My confusion is that in 1871 John Winrow & Elizabeth show up at Parr St Helens with Mary 13, John 10 born Liverpool, Thomas 4 & Margaret 2 born St Helens. RG 10/3865 page 36 This Elizabeth was born in Alvenly Cheshire is this likely to be the same family particularly since the 1881 lists the younger children as being born in St Helens.

Gratefull for advice

Regards
Sandy F
Lee/Winrow/Lawler/Egerton/Jones/Tidyman/Callaghan/Barker/Williamson - all Liverpool

[CaroleW]

Hi

I am posting each of the census details in full as it is easier to see the family that way

1861 - children all b Liverpool ? Casement St Liverpool

John Winrow 29 b Ormskirk - carter
Elizabeth Winrow 32 b Bold
Jane Winrow 6
Mary Winrow 4
James Winrow 14 Months (b March qtr 1860)
RG9; Piece: 2650; Folio: 146; Page: 22

1871 census - Fishers Buildings Parr

John Winrow 38 b Ormskirk - labourer in glass works
Elizabeth Winrow 41 b Cheshire Alvenly (enumerator error I reckon)
Mary Winrow 13 b Liverpool
John Winrow 10 b Liverpool
Thomas Winrow 4 b St Helens
Margaret Winrow 2 ditto
RG10; Piece: 3865; Folio: 127; Page: 36

1881 - Laurence St Liverpool

John Winrow 50 b Ormskirk labourer
Elizabeth Winrow 51 b Bold
James Winrow 21 b Liverpool
John Winrow 18 b Liverpool
Thomas Winrow 14 b Pocket Nook St Helens
Jane Winrow 11 b St Helens
Ellen Winrow 9 b St helens
RG11; Piece: 3593; Folio: 90; Page: 3

[CaroleW]

Per freebmd

Deaths March qtr 1866
Jane Winrow aged 10 Prescot 8b 669

Prescot was the registration district for St Helens

[CaroleW]

I suspect daughter Margaret aged 2 in 1871 is another daughter Jane

Births Jun 1869

Winrow Jane Prescott 8b 608

JANE WINROW Christening: 11 JUL 1869 Parr, Lancashire Father: JOHN WINROW Mother: ELIZABETH


Daughters Jane & Mary were christened on the same day

Mary Winrow Christening: 28 MAR 1858 All Saints, Liverpool, Father: John Winrow Mother: Betty Winrow

Jane Winrow Christening: 28 MAR 1858 All Saints, Liverpool,
Father: John Winrow Mother: Betsy Winrow


Elizabeth Winrow Christening: 31 AUG 1873 All Saints, Liverpool,
Father: John Winrow Mother: Elizabeth Winrow

Deaths June qtr 1877
Elizabeth WINROW aged 3 Liverpool 8b 13

[MaryA]

Only my opinion, but I would think it's the same family and that they moved to the St Helens area for work for a while. Enumerator might have had a couple of glasses that evening

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Wow what a great response - is there a local census directory or something to get the info so succinctly?

What site are you using to get the christening data.

I too feel that they are the same family.

Any suggestions on finding Elizabeths birth certificate - maiden name Barker - Bold does not come up when i search ancestry.

Thanks

Sandy F

Hope you are all surving the "heatwave" it is "cold" here - only getting maximums of 18degrees C!

[MaryA]

You say that you use Ancestry ... this is where we get all our census information online, although it's also available on FindMyPast.

The IGI (International Genealogy Index) or Family Searchsite has the christening data that you are looking for in this instance.

It would appear that Elizabeth was born approximately 1830/31, based on the census entries. As Civil Registration didn't begin until 1837 you will need to look for a baptism rather than a birth.

[MaryA]

Assuming that you have Elizabeth Barker's name from the birth certificate of one of the children, your next step before acquiring her birth certificate is to find the details from the marriage certificate and so ascertaining her father's name and occupation.

As they married in Liverpool and not the St Helens area, it's possible that Elizabeth moved to Liverpool looking for work after the death of her parents, so the entry might confirm if her father was deceased.

You need a look up for this marriage

John Winrow to Elizabeth Barker on 29 April 1855 at Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne, Liverpool

[dickiesam]

Hi everyone,
Just found this:
Alvanley is a village near the village of Helsby in Cheshire ..

Details here: http://dotukdirectory.co.uk/d154124.html

Dickiesam

[CaroleW]

I have tried to find Elizabeth Barker in 1851 but no luck with either a Bold or Cheshire birthplace

As a marriage lookup will be lost amongst this post - can I suggest you raise a new topic asking for a lookup for the 1855 marriage found by Mary on the IGI

[dickiesam]

Hi,
The christening reference to the name Betsy gave me a clue. I think this is her in the 1851. Check out the place of birth.

BARKER, Betsy - Servant - Unmarried - 22 - bn abt 1829 Alvanley, Cheshire.
RG number: HO107; Piece: 2203; Folio: 421; Page: 6.

Registration District: Warrington; Sub District: Warrington; Enumeration District: 1Q; Ecclesiastical Parish: Saint Paul's.

Address: Sankey Street, Warrington, Lancashire.

Head of household:
GRICE, Thomas - Head - Unmarried - 27 - bn abt 1824 - Grocer -
bn Warrington, Lancashire.

Cheers,
Dickiesam

[CaroleW]

Hi

Good find Dickiesam

This is a possible 1841 but will have to wait for the marriage lookup to establish her fathers name

Living in Crump St Liverpool but all shown as not born in county

Robert Barker 45 looks like saw maker
Ann Barker 49
Ann Barker 23
Elizabeth Barker 12
HO107; Piece 565; Book: 8 Folio 11; Page: 14

[MaryA]

I also have an entry in the 1841 census for

Bold Heath, Farnworth, Prescot, Lancashire
All except Mary are born in County

Thomas Barker 45 Blacksmith
Mary 35
Elizabeth 12
Margaret 9
Thomas 4
HO107; Piece 516; Book: 1; Civil Parish: Prescot; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 2; Folio: 23; Page: 12

Hey Dickiesam, I believe we might have cracked it! Look at the family in 1851, although Elizabeth isn't at home and father is now deceased.

Bold, Ancient Chapelry of Farnworth, Lancashire
Mary Barker Head Widow 53 Washerwoman Cheshire Alvanley
Thomas son 13 Scholar Lancs Bold
George Webster Lodger U 50 Ag Lab " "
Thomas Potter " U 28 Tool Maker " "
William Cubbin " U 24 " " Prescot "
HO107; Piece: 2194; Folio: 152; Page: 7

So it would seem that either Elizabeth has at some time in her life given her mother's birthplace as her own, or what might be more likely is that the times when "Bold" has been given, perhaps somebody else has given the information to the enumerator when they really did not know the truth.

[MaryA]

Uh oh, just spotted Carole's entry too.

Well with two alternatives the marriage details are definitely required to see who the father is.

[CaroleW]

Hi Mary

My money's on your 1841/51 entries as they certainly seem the likeliest with Bold and Alvanley mentioned

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Once again I am in awe of your enthusiasm and genersosity in assisting people. You have given me plenty to work on. I will follow up your advice about the marriage lookups. Have already ordered their marraige certificate so it should get here soon but there are a couple more that i will seek your team's assistance with as suggested.

I hope I can assist with some australian stuff at some stage - at least get help from some local Lake Macquarie experts here at the library. Also have contacts with Hill End - a significant area of migration during the gold rush days. As I am of Liverpool extraction they were not much help to me.

Thanks again

[S_Lawler_Lee]

You clever clogs - Marriage certificate for John Winrow and Elizabeth Barker has just arrived - John's father James - Farmer and tah-dah Elizabeth's father is Thomas - Blacksmith doesn't give the bride and groom ages - just states "full" I'm assuming that this means they were old enough.

Well done team

[Tina]

Great news Sandy...
So happy for you as everyone else in the forum will be.

Warmies
Tina

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi all
sorry if I missed this from all that was previously written (I read it twice and didn't see it anywhere):-

IGI - Elizabeth Barker
Christening: 11 APR 1830 Alvanley, Cheshire, England
Father Thomas
Mother Mary Barker

Tony

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Thanks Tony every little bit helps. Ofcourse this new marriage certificate has now created another mystery but I will post a new topic.