Marriage of a seaman

[Jean]

I have not been able to find a marriage between Mary Ford and Herman Christoff Lors , who on various censuses is listed as a mariner. He was previously married in 1885 to Margaret Elizabeth Andrews (cannot find her death). They had three children, Herman, Ferdinand and Frank (the last two died in infancy). Herman senior died in 1894 and his death certificate names Mary as informant and wife. Could there have been a marriage other than Church or Registry office possibly ship, or was this a "marriage" in name only?

[colette]

Hi its not a common name..and theres no death as you say for Margaret Elizabeth..
But there is a marriage for a Margaret E Lores -William Palmer in Leeds 1919.

Have you found Margaret on the 1891..and Mary in the 1901 was she the mother of all 3 boys ? Did Mary his second partner remarry too in 1896 ??

Its looking to me that Margaret didn't die maybe she up and left him for someone else..so this could be why you can find no marriage to Mary Ford as he was most proberbly still married to Margaret..


Regards

[Jean]

Hi Colette,
Thanks for the info. on the later marriage of Margaret Lors (nee Andrews). I would go along with your idea that she left Herman, although as he died in 1891 she took a long time to remarry. I have not managed to find Margaret on any future census records either as Lors (variants spellings) or if she reverted to her maiden name.

Yes, Mary did later marry William Ellis and took eldest son Herman (now Ernest) to live with them, the two other children having died. I suppose it was easier to go along with the "marriage" on the all the documents where she is listed as "widow". I just hoped that she had made things "legal"!
Jean

[dickiesam]

Hi Jan,
According to FreeBMD the children were born as:
Herman in 1888; Frederick in 1892 and Frank in 1893.

I can't find the family in the 1891, probably a surname problem? But do you have the birth certs for all three children and have the name of the mother for all three? Given that Frank was born only a year before Herman's death, and died a couple of months after Herman, I've a feeling that the Mary who registered Herman senior's death in 1894 may have been a 'familiar' variation of Margaret.
Cheers,
Dickiesam

[Tina]

Evening All
Births
Herman Christof F Lors dec qtr 1885 WDerby
Hermann August Lors bn 1888 dec qtr W Dby
Ferdinand Frederick Lors jun qtr 1892 WD died 1892 O yrs
Frank William Lors dec qtr 1893 WD died 1894 O yrs
Death Herman Lors aged 36yrs jun qtr 1894 Lpool

Birth rego Herman Christoff F Lors
W Dby 1885 dec qtr W Dby 8b 777
Edit this should read marriage not birth sorry


Marr 1896 St Peters
Mary Ellen Lors to Wm Hy Ellis, only 2 yrs since death of Herman?

Looking at kiddies births you would think that Margaret died 1888 onward & marriage to Mary Ellen was before birth of Frank 1893?
Just guessing

Tina

[Jean]

Hi Tina and Dickiesam,

Thanks for all your research.

You are correct in saying that Mary Ellen Lors (nee Ford) married Wm. Henry Ellis in 1896 - two years after the death of Herman. (The marriage cert. I have says "widow"). In 1901 they have Herman jnr. (now Ernest) and other children (Ellis) living with them - all verified.

Herman married Margaret Eliz. Andrews in 1885 (have cert.)

However, the children Herman, Frank and Frederick all have Mary Ellen Lors (formerly Ford) on the birth certs. as mother and Herman Lors as father.

In 1891 I have them on the census as a family named "Lewis", but all first names and ages etc. correspond and the address is that of Herman's death, so correct.

I have been unable to trace Herman August Lors (b. 1888) their first son after 1901 either through his "new" name of Ernest and surname Lors or Ellis in case he was "adopted".
Regards.
Jean

[dickiesam]

Hello Jean,
Stranger things have happened...... I think there's a strong parallel here to what happened in one of my lines that mystified me for several years.

While Herman and Margaret married in 1885 she may well have 'departed', as it were, for a more attractive companion before any children came along. Herman probably met Mary pre-1888 and couldn't marry her because Margaret was still around. For the sake of propriety, and the neighbours (!), she would have considered herself his wife in the 1891 census, when the children arrived and as his widow when she married William Ellis.

With such a rare name as Lors, I think that the 1919 marriage Colette found could well be Margaret Elizabeth. Worth getting the cert to check the fathers' names with the 1885 one?

In my parallel, the spouse of the 'run-away' wife didn't die early on and he had to wait nearly 25 years until she did in 1924 and he could marry his 'wife' of over 20 years, my paternal g.mother!
Cheers,
Dickiesam

[Jean]

Hi dickiesam,
This is what I had thought, but just wondered if anyone had bright ideas for finding a "legal" answer. Will just have to accept the reality!
Thanks.
Jean