Penrose Street

[colette]

Hiya

so is Harriet from Warwickshire ??? as you mentioned Birmigham etc..looks like Jane Emily was born in Birmingham 1880 according to 1911..

Regards

[MaryA]

Try the 1911 census and put just Simpson in the surname box, West Derby in drop down district and Jane Emily Simpson in the "Other Members of the Household".

I think you might find that your "Jean" was named after her mother and Herbert's birth date might be confirmed.

Reference RD455 SD8 ED34

Did Herbert have a brother Thomas William?

[colette]

Hiya

this is her birth reg..

Births Mar 1881 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BROOKES Jane Emily Aston 6d 375

1891 census 66 Christian St Lpool

Henry Horton b 1858 Coventry Dock Labourer..
Harriet b 1864 Birmingham
Henry b 1880 Manchester
Jane b 1881 Birmingham
Rosanna b 1889 Birmingham
Esther b 1890 Liverpool

[seasider66]

Thank you so much for your help ladies

MARY, I will have a look at 1911 census, but your info seems to be pretty accurate Don't know if there was a Thomas William in the family....not yet anyway More research needed

COLETTE, Yes Jane Emily was apparently born in Birmingham (Aston by all accounts) and the year is good as well
I'm off to search the 1911 now
Lil

[colette]

Hi again

I belive Herbert to be the son of Matthew Henry Simpson and Dinah Radford..

They married in Pendleton 1869

1881 4 house 7 court Hunter St

M H Simpson age 32 Labourer b Yorkshire
Dinah age 27 b Pendleton
Son John H age 10 b Pendleton
Son Joseph E age 6 b Pendleton
Son Herbert age 18 months b Liverpool

1891 64 Canterbury St Everton
Matthew H Simpson age 43 b Yorkshore Comission Agent
Dinah age 37 b Pendleton
John H ahe 20 b Pen..
Joseph E age 16 b Pen..
Herbert C age 10 b Lpool
Jessica age 7 b Lpool
Thomas age 4 b Lpool
Eva age 2 months b Lpool

1901 29 William Henry St Everton

Matthew Simpson 51 Labourer b Yorks
Dinah age 48 b Pendleton
Thomas age 15 Furniture Van Driver b Lpool
Eva age 11 b Lpool
Mabel age 7 b Lpool

Frederick G Wright age 22 Furniture Van Driver b Birkenhead
Jessica age 19 b Lpool
Son Frederick age 7 months b Lpool

Joseph E Simpson age 26 b Pendleton
Mary A age 21 b Lpool
Dau Mary age 9 months b Lpool

ALL IN SAME HOUSEHOLD..

Regards

[colette]

Hi

It looks like little Esther died

Deaths Jun 1893 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horton Esther 3 W. Derby 8b 358

Can't for the life of me find Harriet in 1901.. and i can see no marriage for her to a James (Jimmy Moran)..did Henry Horton ?? if so maybe she never actualy married this Moran man maybe thye just lived together.


Regards

[seasider66]

Hi Colette,

What a star you are
Thank you so much for all that info. I had a look on 1911 census and found some info. then tried the 1891 census and found grandfather at the Hunter St address.
Hadn't found any of the other info you've given me though. Mind you I've been on the phone for the last half-hour or so....a chatty friend
I'm sure you've found 'my family' and I'm delighted....thank you again
Lil

[seasider66]

Hi

It looks like little Esther died

Deaths Jun 1893 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horton Esther 3 W. Derby 8b 358

Can't for the life of me find Harriet in 1901.. and i can see no marriage for her to a James (Jimmy Moran)..did Henry Horton ?? if so maybe she never actualy married this Moran man maybe thye just lived together.


Regards

Hi Colette,
That's so sad I may send for the death cert just to see the details....I know it's morbid, but it all adds to the family history.
I had a sister who died age just 11 months. When I got her birth and death certs and compared them with my other siblings, it seems my poor mum was a baby machine, giving birth to 5 children between 1939 and 1946 I was never close to my father and now I just feel contempt for him, putting my mum through all that and a war to contend with as well. Mum was pregnant with my youngest brother when my little sister died...he was born 2 months later, so not much time between them
I know it's all in the past and I can't change that, but it makes me so sad and angry at the same time.
Sorry about that - rant over
Lil

[colette]

So sad what they went through back then and we moan ...

My Grandads mum was pregnant with him in 1916 when she buried his little sister 19 months old.. god love her..

Just need to find Harriet now in 1901 oh and Jane of course.. they are not showing up as HORTON OR MORAN..

I think Henry Horton died

Deaths Dec 1896 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horton Henry 44 Liverpool 8b 57

I am wondering if Harriet met someone else before she met J Moran..

I'll keep looking..

xx

[colette]

Hiya

Its driving me nuts trying to find Harriet & Jane Emily in 1901 tried under Horton Hor..... Moran Mor..... etc and nothing..

Think i can see her in 1911 although can't look as i have no credits..there s Harriet Moran b 1864 Warwickshire showing up in West Derby district, whos a good possibility.

I am also wondering about Henry the boy aged 11 in 1891 born Manchester.. wondering if Harriet was also his mother.. or was Henry Horton married before and lost his wife..and had one son to her...and why such a huge gap between kids. could be as your story goes that he hot her pregnant maybe with two kids and would'nt marry her , but did so after a few years and thats when (Rosanna Rose Hannah etc) Esther came along.

Tried looking for their marriage 1886-87-88-89 as Free BMD havent finished those years.. afrew Henry Horton's but no match to a Harriet Brookes

According to the 1891, Henry the son was born c 1880 in Manchester so by all rights he should be there and i cant find him or Henry senior..


xx

[MaryA]

No address, but those living with Harriet Moran are John age 52, Esther age 12, and William John age 8, also Rose Aughton age 22. Rose is born Manchester.

[colette]

Hi Mary that is them it has to be..


Seasider said she ended up with a Jimmy Moran i assumed he was James, but must have been a John..Esther i thought had died as i found a death for an Esther Horton aged 3 1893..Rose was born 1889, so her age adds up too..she was baptised in Manchester..but says born Birmingham on the 1891, so maybe a mistake in 1891

Aughton that would throw anyone off..

Cheers xx

[colette]

Hi

Just realised Esther did doe and shes had another..
Births Sep 1897 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moran Esther W. Derby 8b 286


William John will be one of these


Births Jun 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MORAN William W. Derby 8b 350

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MORAN William John W. Derby 8b 543




Still cant see a marriage for Harriet & John

xx

[seasider66]

Hi Mary and Colette,
Thank you so much for all your hard work, you've really helped me out. I'd started to think they were going to be as difficult as the John Smith family
Still haven't come across marriage for Harriet, but I've sent for the death cert of Esther and birth cert for Jane Emily. With any luck there may be a clue somewhere
I had no idea that there were so many family members and I'm looking forward to working out where they all fit in with those I do know about
Thanks again, girls, I'm really grateful.
Lil

[colette]

Hi Lil

I love a challenge haaaaaaaaa..so we know for sure now Harriet was with John Moran in 1896-7..so why ca'nt we find them in 1901..unless hes Irish and has taken Harriet over there for a visit..theres nothing showing up for any of them.

And what were Harriet & Henry Horton doing in Manchester, its looking like they go to Manchester have son Henry c 1880 go back to Birmingham have Dau Jane Emily..time apart maybe ?? then they go back to Manchester or he stayed there one or the other and have Rose 1889 and then come to Liverpool and have Esther 1890, Henry dies.. and Harriets now alone, she meets John Moran and has another Esther 1897, then William John 1903.

So wonder what happened to Henry Horton Junior or was he also a BROOKES..somehow i am wondering if Harriet married either of these men..

If Henry Junior was born 1880 he should be on the 1881 census and i ca'nt even find him very ellusive family haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

If Jane Emily was Brookes then Henry Jr should be Brookes too..

xx

[seasider66]

They are begining to be as elusive as the Smiths
Had a look on 1911 census and found the info Mary found, plus the address 31 Jenkinson St. Everton, Liverpool.

If Henry was Harriet's and born 1880 then she would have only been 16-ish herself and then to go on and have Jane Emily a year later, makes me wonder if they were living together for a few years before they got married.....always supposing they were ever married in the first place Family lore has it that she was 'forced' into marriage with Harold Horton to give the child a name, but who knows? She seems to have been quite a girl When I knew her she was an old lady always dressed in black from top to toe including a hat Mind you I was only a small child so she was probably not as old as she appeared
According to the 1911 census site, Harriet and John Moran had been married 16 years. Harriet's age is given as 47 so she would have been about 30-ish when they married.
What a muddle! Wish I'd never started looking for this side of the family now
Not really, I love finding out about my ancestors, especially those I can remember from my childhood days
Thanks again for all you've done to help me
Lil

[seasider66]

So wonder what happened to Henry Horton Junior or was he also a BROOKES..somehow i am wondering if Harriet married either of these men..

If Henry Junior was born 1880 he should be on the 1881 census and i ca'nt even find him very ellusive family haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
xx

I wonder if Henry jnr died before the 1881 census? I can't find him either
Lil

[colette]

Hiya

Henry Junior is on the 1891 so by 1901 he would be a man in his own right could have gone to sea maybe..

Its making sense as in 1901 Herbert Simpson lived in William Henry St.. and you say the Moran's are at Jenkinson St.. it ran off William Henry St.. this is how Jane & Herbert met

xx

[colette]

Hiya what was John's job in 1911 ???


xx

[seasider66]

Hi Colette,

Well at least the jigsaw seems to be coming together in places
I haven't lived in Liverpool since I was 13+ (and that's a long time ago) so I have no idea where these streets are/where, however I can see how Jane and Herbert could easily have met if they lived so close to each other.
None of my ancestors had the urge to move far from where they were born or spent their childhood, no sense of adventure More likely no money though
I wonder why young Henry doesn't seem to be on the 1881 census but he is on the 1891? I suppose he could have been staying with a relative or something on census night, or he may even have been in hospital. Anyway, as long as I find some of them I'll be happy
Thanks again my friend
Lil