William Burns - WW1

[Ken Lees]

I wonder if anyone can give me any help finding a bit more about this Great War soldier:

William Burns, Private 2250/330419

According to his attestation form, William was born in Kirkdale, Liverpool and enlisted into the 9th Battalion of the King’s Liverpool Regiment, in Liverpool, on 6th August, 1914, two days after the outbreak of the First World War. He gave his occupation as a labourer at that time.

He gave his age as 34 years and 8 months on enlistment, but this may not have been accurate. As will be seen later, he may have knocked 10 years off his real age in order to enlist.

His medical form describes him as 5 feet 8½ inches tall, 35-37inch chest, of good physical development and with good vision.

He had previous service in the Royal Engineers (at Mason Street, Liverpool), serving in 1908 on the formation of the Territorial Force. It is not known how long he served for.

On 12th March, 1915 the 1/9th King’s Liverpool Regiment were deployed to France and Pte William Burns was one of the men in this original deployment of the battalion to the Western Front.

On 7th April, 1916 he was due back with his unit after a period of home leave and he failed to return. Perhaps he believed he had ‘done his bit’ by serving in France for two and a half years, or maybe the strain of his experiences was too much for him and he couldn’t face going back to the horrors of the war – we will probably never know. He was apprehended in Liverpool, in uniform, on 27th April by the police. He was returned to his unit where he was awarded 28 days Field Punishment No.1. before returning to France to rejoin his unit.

He returned to the UK in November, 1917 and on 19th December, he was handed an envelope and told to report to the 7th (Reserve) Battalion, King’s Liverpool Regiment, based at Oswestry. Did William Burns know that the documents were the only notification that his new Commanding Officer was to receive about the posting of Burns to the unit? Perhaps he did, but it is possible that he simply did what he had done in 1916 and returned to Liverpool instead of reporting for duty. He did not arrive at Oswestry and neither did the package of documents he carried. The absence of the documents meant that the Officer Commanding the 7th (Reserve) Battalion did not receive any notification of William’s transfer so his absence was not noticed.

It was only when he was apprehended by the police in Liverpool on 13th April the following year that his absence was noted.

William Burns was tried, found guilty and awarded 84 days detention in a military prison. He was subsequently granted 14 days remission of this sentence.

On 24th February, 1919 William Burns was discharged from 309 Coy. Royal Army Service Corps at St. Albans, being “no longer physically fit for War Service”. His address on discharge was given as 44, Shallcross Street, Liverpool, the home of his nephew, John Duke.

He was awarded a pension on account of his disability which was decribed on his pension papers as “myalgia”. His age on discharge was given as 49 and he was single.

What else can I learn about William Burns?

When was he really born, 1880 as his enlistment papers suggest, or 1870 as his discharge papers tell us? William Burns is not an uncommon name, so this might not be easy.

Any suggestions would be gratefully accepted.

Ken

[simone]

Hi Ken

In 1901 there is possible John Duke with his family, they have a Thomas Burns with them as nephew maybe this family is connected to your William
at 4 Richard Street, Everton
Name Age
RG13; Piece: 3480; Folio: 88; Page: 43
George Duke 44 b Liverpool, Compositer Print
Mary Francis Duke 40 b Cumberland
Francis Duke 16 cigarette maker
George W Duke 14 errand boy
John R Duke 9
Dorothy S Duke 8
Lilian E Duke 14
Thomas Burns 11 nephew

Simone x

[MaryA]

That theory seems reasonable enough to follow the Duke family through and see where it leads.

1891 transcribed Dicke
68 Radcliffe Street, Everton
George Duke Head M 31 Compositor Printer Liverpool
Mary Wife M 29 Bispham, Cumberland
Frances daur 6 Scholar Liverpool
George H? son 4 Scholar Liverpool
Margaret Greenup Lodger S 22 Inn Barmaid Whitehaven Cumberland
RG12; Piece: 2942; Folio 46; Page 19

[MaryA]

and 1881 gives George's siblings, although will need to check also 1871 to see if there are any more.

34 Bismark Street, Everton - all born Liverpool
George Duke Head Widowed age unclear Printer Compositor
George son Un 21 Printer Compositor
Elizabeth daur 16 Scholar
Henry son 11 "
Alfred son 9 "
William James son 7 "
Alexander son 5 "
RG11; Piece: 3663; Folio: 55; Page: 43

[MaryA]

1871
64 House, Victoria Street, Everton - all born Liverpool
George Duke Head M 34 occupation looks like Painter but I suppose it could be Printer
Elizabeth wife M 35 Dressmaker
George son 11 Scholar
Samuel son 10 "
Elizabeth daur 6 "
Henry son 3 "
Joseph Harrison Father in Law Widr 66 Shipwright
Mary Harrison Sis in Law Unm 33 Seamstress
/Mary Connor servant Unm 18 Servant Scotland Forfar
RG10; Piece: 3813; Folio: 132; Page: 12

So probably no other females - no marriages for an Elizabeth Duke, so need to find young George's marriage to Mary and check her siblings.

[simone]

Ok realise I may be muddying the water here and could be red herring but given that I have a Glous family by a similar name of Burns, seen as variations of Burns, Barnes, Byrne (s) , Bern, et al
I found these entries interesting although no idea how they would fit, so bear with me

Lancs BMD for 1877 has marriage
DUKE Henry BURNS Elizabeth Toxteth Park, St. Michael Liverpool 2068TP/11/433
census has this couple in 1881 with step children Barnes

Name Age
Henry Duke 52 b Isle of Man= blacksmith
Elizabeth Duke 38 b Liverpool
Margaret C. Duke 24 daughter - b Liverpool
John Armes 26 son in law - Painter husband of M C Duke b Warwickshire
James Barnes 16 step son
Ellen A. Barnes 14 step daughter
Elizabeth M. Barnes 6 step daur
Leilian M. E. Armes g daur? - b bootle
Mary E. Astell 18 servant
James Hughes 33 lodger

so Margart C is daughter of Henry, she is married to John Armes, so why isn't she listed as Armes, prob mistake the way enumerator has done it.
Lilian is there daughter
James, Ellen, and Elizabeth are Elizabeth's children but should they be Burns as in the name of mother at marriage.

Sorry still doesn't find deffo details for William yet, and explain young Thomas Burns with John Duke though need to try and make a connection

Simone x

[simone]

Another Isle of Man, Duke marrying a Burns
marriage Lancs BMD 1872
DUKE James BURNS Mary Toxteth Park, St. Michael Liverpool 2068TP/9/104
9 Gelling Street
1881 CENSUS
RG11; Piece: 3637; Folio: 107; Page: 2
Name Age
James Duke 33 b Isle of Man = Police Constable
Mary Duke 34
Mary C. Duke 6
James Duke 4
Hetty Duke 3

perhaps keep these families on back burner just in case can't tie up at the mo.

Simone x

[dot326]

Have been away for a week and so missed the start of this thread.

The George Duke family---Compositor---are mine!!!

William Francis Burns was b 1876---William Francis Rawes. and was the illegotimate son of Mary Frances Rawes. Mary Frances stepfather was Robinson Burns.

Mary Frances Rawes supposedy married George Duke. Have never been able to find thier marriage. They were both listed as single in 1881.My Grandmother Frances Elizabeth Duke was b Liverpool 1884.

Mary Frances Rawes was b 1856 Brigham Cumberland .Her father Francis Rawes died of TB just before she was born.She was an only child of this marriage. Her mother Sarah Rawes nee Mirehouse m Robinson Burns and had several children.


Shallcross St comes up again as my Grandma Frances Duke and her husband Charles Bolton lived there---later their married daughter lived there.

I don't have any credits for 1911, but I think the Boltons were there in Shallcross St. If anyone is able to find them there was Charles Bolton b 1881, Frances 1884, Elsie 1902, Caroline, Edna 1910 and maybe others.

Dorothy

[dot326]

Big OOPS,
It should have been Robert Frances Rawes/Burns b 1876---not William>>

Dorothy

[MaryA]

It sounds like you will be able to help out Ken?

Put
"Bolton" in the surname box
"West Derby" in the Residence
"Edna" in the Other Person First Name

[simone]

Fabulous Dot

help is on its way Ken

Simone x

[dot326]

Just had a quick check---my Boltons/Duke were at 30 Shallcross St in 1911.

I don't think the William Burns mentioned was ours though???

Have to go out for a while just now---will have another look when I come back
Dorothy

Ps Edna was my mum.

[dot326]

Mary Frances Duke nee Rawes------had a half brother William Burns b 1872. (Family shown as Binns in 1881)

George Duke and Mary Frances had a son John R Duke b 1892. So, I suppose that John could have been William Burns nephew???

Dorothy

[Ken Lees]

Brilliant!

Thanks everyone. I will now try and get my head around the relationships.

Pencil and large sheet of paper required.

Thanks again,

Ken

[Geoff Duke]

Fascinated to come upon your site and find you discussing the Duke family. I was browsing sites on Duke family history on the Isle of man and came upon your site. As far as I know the Duke family came to the Isle of Man from England around 1840ish. Anybody know anything about that??
My father was Wilfred Duke (joiner and carpenter)-same as my grandfather who was one of four brothers who emigrated to New Zealand from the Isle of Man. I understand that my great grandfather and his father were also in the trade of joiners and cabinetmakers and the like.
I have never been to the Isle of Man but would love to go one day, it looks awesome from what I have seen. We have surviving cousins on the island, an older coupl wellinto their 60's who visited us in new Zealand about 5 years ago. Lovely people who we had an instant rapport with, and a sense of family right away. They have a middle aged son and daughter still on the island I believe.
I know we are related, as cousins, to the Coleman family(the famous mustard makers of England) and also the Duckworth family which are in the Bourkes book of English pierage. There is also supposed to be a large private graveyard in Kent England where their are lords and ladies buried who are Duke relations. Love to know more if anyone can help me out. Regards Geoff Duke

[Tina]

Hi Geoff
Fantastic that you have found our Forum and Welcome aboard.
Thank you for informative post.

Tina

downunder crew

[daggers]

"Geoff Duke and Isle of Man" - where have I heard that before? Yes, of course, TT races champion rider a year or many ago!
Welcome, Geoff.
Daggers

[Geoff Duke]

Yeah nearly everyone over 60 yrs of age who hears my name asks-"your'e not related to the great Geoff Duke- Isle of Man motorcycle champion are you?? Sadly iIam not- but have been mad keen on motorcycles since I was knee high to a mudguard as they say. A dream of mine is to go to the TT races and visit cousins on the Island, the scenery looks wonderful. I just need a lotto win and it will be all good, lol
My last bike was a 2007 CB1300s Honda which I was forced to sell to buy our last house Have owned about 17 bikes over the years- they are in my blood ( having serious withdrawl symptoms after selling last bike !!)
Thanks for the warm welcome to the site, cheers Geoff

[Scully]

Just seen this thread.

The James Duke b.IofM Simone mentioned was married to Mary Burns b.Scotland. Mary was the sister of my GtGt grandmother Dorothea Burns who was married to Francis Black.
I know James Duke had a brother John but I have not yet looked into his marriage etc. He also had a sister Eliza.
The Burns side was a large family (weren't they all then!)
I don't know if this will be any connection to William Burns but it was my Duke/Burns rellies in Gelling St.

Tracey.