BAPTISM QUERY

[Berylb]

My husband was the fourth of seven children born to John Birchall and Florence Lloyd at Everton Valley in 1926. Originally registered as Kenneth Birchall, his father changed the spelling to Burchall. Ken said he never had a second christian name and always said it would be Joseph - but this was his confirmation name. I have since learned that the other six siblings all had second names and it seems strange that he was the only one who didn't get one. There is only one name on the BMD record and on his birth certificate, but I wonder if he was baptised with two names? They moved to West Derby soon after his birth. Can anyone advise me on this?

[Tina]

Happy New Year Beryl
I'd be looking at where Flo & John got married first off and taking it from there.
It's a good chance kiddies were baptised same place.
Do you have the details please?
Just to add I'm the only one in my tree who doesn't have a middle name.
Do you the details of births for siblings?
Tina

[Berylb]

Hi Tina, That was quick! Yes, you might be right. I do know that John and Flo married in Nottingham and the first three were born there. They then moved to Everton Valley, where Ken was born - but were living in West Derby when the next sister was born sixteen months later. He told me his second name was Joseph, but his eldest sister corrected him and said it was his confirmation name. He died in 1991 and it is only since then that I have been researching and asking questions, that I found the others all had second names. Only the two youngest sisters left now and they are 'hopeless'. I know more about their family than they do!
I don't want to put anyone to any trouble on this - just to satisfy my curiosity, but I was hoping someone might steer me onto some way of finding out. They all went to St.Theresa's school in West Derby, but I feel that Ken would have been baptised in Everton Valley.
Thanks again for your quick reply.
Happy New Year.

[Tina]

Lo tis me again.
Free BMD births Mona nee Lloyd 1921 Nottingham Burchill/Burchell
Katheleen as Burchall nee Lloyd birth jun qtr Nott 1923
John Burchall nee Lloyd Notts dec qtr 1924
Perhaps the 3 kiddies born in Notts.
Have you the marr ref please?
Do you know the names of sibs born in Lpool? Can't seem to find any.
Thanks

Tina

[Berylb]

Hello again Tina,
You are too kind! Yes, Mona, Kathleen and John were all born in Nottingham; Ken in Everton Valley and Mary, Teresa and Audrey were born in West Derby. Ken served with the British Army (1944-46), then emigrated in 1950 and married in 1957, but it wasn't until he obtained a copy of his birth certificate in 1980 that he found his father had changed the spelling in 1928. It seems that he was fed up with the confusion, so had it 'fixed' - but it got fixed the wrong way! (and we have no intention of changing it back again).
I really need to know the name of the RC church in Everton Valley. Perhaps then, I can find someone who will be able to check out the old records. Who knows? I might be lucky enough to have someone give me the name of a Website that will tell me what I want to know.
Thank you so much for your help and interest Tina. I really appreciate it.
Regards from Beryl.

[daggers]

Are you taking West Derby from birth certs etc? The WD registration district covered a wide area of outer Liverpool, and may be throwing you off the trail.
Actual addresses would be helpful.
D

[Tina]

Hi Beryl thank you for lovely reply!
Daggers raises a good point.
In 1938 Directory there are 5 John Birchall's, all the Lpool postcodes would be in the West Derby area.
Do you have an occupation or perhaps a middle name for John?

off topic, I'm away for 8 days, Freo to Freo on a ship...
One of our forum folk will read this & chase up 1938 for you.
TTFN
Tina

[Berylb]

Hello Daggers,
Very good of you to add your help - it is much appreciated. Sorry for delay in replying, but we may be in different time zones.
I have only Ken's certificate.

Regn. District West Derby
Sub-district of Everton North West, County of Liverpool CB
Born at 40, Everton Valley. U.D.
Father's address: 40, Everton Valley. U.D.

Some time between Ken's birth (18/3/26) and Mary's (27/7/27), the family moved to 69 Cottesbrook Road, West Derby, Liverpool 11.
That's the address where I sent letters to Florrie until her death in 1966,

Please don't go to any trouble, but if you know the district, you might be able to steer me towards knowing the name of the church so I can make further enquiries there.

Thanks again - VERY MUCH!

[Berylb]

My thanks to Tina
Hope you have a wonderful trip. Enjoy!!!

As for John's second name - well!! I do have HIS birth certificate and there is no second name on it and nothing in any of the research which I have done. However, his daughters were surprised when I told them this as they said 'he always called himself John Thomas'. His name on Ken's certificate is shown as John Thomas Birchall - and I believe he was buried under that name - but again, was it a confirmation name or a name given at his baptism? or did he just 'think' it was?
I haven't even thought of going into that one. I'm having enough problems trying to find out if Ken had a second name! His dad was born (and buried) in Kirkdale, but there is no headstone as a problem arose regarding the deeds and a stone was never put in place.

Happy Holiday Tina.

[daggers]

I am not too familiar with Everton Valley nor RC churches, but have looked in the excellent book 'Churches of Liverpool' by David Lewis, which does not have a church listed as in that road, but it could be at a corner, with the entrance and address in the other road.
I have now looked at a map and suggest it might be this:
Our Lady Immaculate, St Domingo Road, built in 1856, which is one of the few side roads.
The text says it was used as the chapel for St Edward's College [long since moved to another district] but built to a design by the famous Edward Pugin as the Lady Chapel for a proposed cathedral, demolished in the mid-1970s and replaced by a new church nearby.
Another more detailed map suggests this may be too far away from Everton Valley, and there was a convent marked around 1900 in Everton Valley itself, sandwiched between a Congregational church and a C of E.
Someone with better local knowledge may be able to say more - good hunting.
Daggers

[Berylb]

Daggers! You are wonderful! You brought back a memory long since buried. The family all believed that they moved from Nottingham direct to West Derby and were surprised when I told them about Everton Valley. However, it jogged the memory of the eldest sister, Mona, who vaguely remembered going to a different school initially and said that she had been told that the original church was destroyed and a new one built 'around the corner' - facing the side street. Whether it was in the same grounds or not, I don't know - but if it is close, then it is probably the one I am after. Mona made that comment a few years ago. She died in 2005, aged 84.
Thank you - Thank you! I have a name at last to follow up!
Now, all I have to do is find someone who can guide me from there - but first, I will search the Internet to see if there is any information on a website. I don't like to ask for help until I have exhausted all the avenues I know. Thank you again. You have helped me heaps!
Happy New Year!

[daggers]

Try this:
http://www.emanuensis.btinternet.co.uk/domingo.htm
Daggers

[Berylb]

Hello Daggers,
Just getting back to you to say that I looked up the site you recommended and found an email address for the creator of it. I have sent an email and asked for his/her input. I feel sure that is the right church, after looking at the maps, etc. so it is only a matter of waiting for a reply now and my curiosity will hopefully be satisfied. (I'll probably find that there never was a second name!).
For now, I want to thank you for your help. Hope I can do the same for you some time. Happy New Year!

[jan44]

Hi Beryl,

Here are some Everton Churches, their records would be at Liverpool Records Office in William Brown Street.

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/Everton/index.html

RefNo 282 IMM
Title Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church, St. Domingo Road
Date 1857-1922
AdminHistory The church was opened by Bishop Goss on 7 December 1856. It was the intention of the founders that it should be the chapel of the Immaculate Conception, a lady chapel of a cathedral dedicated to St. Edward in the grounds of S. Edward's Collefe, Everton. It was designed by Edward Welby Pugin, son of the great Augustus. The project was, however abandoned, due to pressure on funds for churches and schools for the rapidly expanding Irish population, after the lady chapel was built, and itis now known as the church of Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, St. Domingo Road.
Extent 16 volumes
RelatedMaterial The later registers and the indexes to the earlier registers are preserved at the church.
AccessConditions Access will be granted to any accredited reader.

Jan

[jan44]

Beryl,

Getting back to the 1938 Directory

Jn Birchall - Machine Presser 69 Cottesbrook Rd L11.

Jan

[Berylb]

Hello Jan,
Thank you for your interest and help - and yes, that's my father in law! I never met him or Florrie. He died just before I met Ken in 1956, but I wrote to Florrie frequently until she died. I remember her offering his Baptism certificate to Ken when he told her we were getting married, but he said he didn't need it. Oh! how I wish she had sent it! I believe her son-in-law destroyed all papers after she died. Still - I would have known all this time whether or not he had a second name - and I wouldn't have met you nice, helpful people!
I went into the site Daggers suggested and found interesting reading. From the pictures, it does fit in with the comment my sister in law, Mona, made years ago - and which I'd forgotten about. She said it when I first told them about Everton and it jogged her memory. Until then, she thought she had only gone to school in West Derby.
I have made a note of what you have told me and will wait to see if I get a reply from this other person first, then will try the R.Office if I don't have success.
Thank you very much for your help. It is very kind of you and much appreciated.
Regards from Beryl.

[jan44]

Hi Beryl,

Glad to help,

Let us know if you get anywhere with your search, good luck.

Jan

[big g]

Happy New Year Jan - love your new avatar !!!!!!!!

[Berylb]

Hi folks,

Waited a long time and didn't receive a reply from the church. However!!!
One of my remaining sisters in law was hospitalised at Christmas and I wasn't able to get to her about this until recently.

It was when she said that she thought it was LAW that everybody had to have a saint's name, that I explained to her that this applied to confirmation in the RC church and had nothing to do with the registration of a birth. She then checked her birth certificate and said "well what do you know? I always thought I had a second name!" Her sister checked her own certificate and came up with "It's wrong, I do have a second name". and so it turns out that NONE of them had a second name - they were confused with their confirmation names! Their father too, apparently.

I have to apologise to all of you who were so wonderful in helping me when I wondered why my husband didn't have a second name, since ALL of his siblings did! They didn't!!

Thank you so very much and again, I apologise!

[MaryA]

I'm glad you got that sorted out Beryl, it just shows we can only trust certificates, not memories