The elusive LENNON family

[simone]

Ooh Sue

It could really be him

Where's Peter then, is he in Wales
Oh no he isn't, he wasn't born then was he

Simone x

[Dominex]

It means Mary was alone with Mary on the 1861 somewhere

Sue

[Dominex]

Mentions the Earl of Erne, only just though


http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/Liverpoolmemories.html
Sue

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi all
sounds like you've been having fun this morning .

Now the thing is.... Tom Lennon (in Aus.) has always maintained that his Grandfather Peter told him that his G-Grandfather Thomas was from Dundalk. This looks very promising even if the age is out by 4 years. (by the way I think his occupation on ship reads Coal Trimmer).

I should also tell you that the story is that he and Mary arrived in Liverpool from Dundalk already married. I'd never accepted this because of the marriage cert. of Thomas Lemon and Mary Devitt. That marriage would really be too much of a coincidence if it isn't really our Lennons.

At the moment though, I feel its more important to know where they were in those 4 census years but I suppose everything is a piece in the bigger jigsaw (metric or imperial ).

Just getting back to Thomas aged 17 in 1891. What is the likelihood of his mother giving birth at the age of 50 (supposing she was born in 1825). It doesn't seem likely does it?
Has anyone else come across women in other families who are so late having children?

Thanks all
Tony

[simone]

Hi Tony

I have a couple of women in my tree who have had children age 48/49, so given that we don't have her exact date of birth, I think it's quite likely that she would have had him.


Must admit you read my mind though in some way. I was only thinking this morning could Tom be Mary Ann's illegitimate son and maybe passed off as son of Thomas and Mary. Maybe he is with Mary Ann again in 1891 because Thomas and Mary have passed away. It was common I believe for grandparents to pass illigitimate children off as their own. I have one in my tree passed off as daughter to grandparents.

All in all though I think Tom could still very possibly be Thomas and Mary's

Simone x

[Dominex]

I was thinking along the same lines as if Tom could've been their grandson?
Though it's not impossible to have had a child at the age of 50. I think my hubby's Grandma had her youngest at about 50.

Sue

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi Simone and Sue
I'd not thought of the possibility that Thomas may have been someone else's child. I know it wasn't uncommon and I suspect that has also happened in a couple of other branches.

I'm glad having a baby at 50 isn't too far fetched for you both to accept as well (especially since you both have relatives on your trees who were also of a similar age).

Regarding electoral registers in the LRO - what date did they start and are they listed alphabetically or by address?

Back to the hunt
Tony

[Dominex]

Am I right in saying that I can't find any births on the igi because they were RC? and RC churches wouldn't let the Mormons take info?
I'm asking this o I don't keep going to the website each time a light lights up in this blonde head of mine!

Sue

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi Sue
you are right - all the Lennon family are Catholics as far as I know. There are a few other branches that were married out of the Catholic church (Hennessys for one) usually because of a pre-marrital pregnancy (those sailors often came back too late to make it respectable .
Tony

[simone]

Hi

Not sure what dates the electoral roll start. I've looked at them for the 1880's on microfilm, but I'm sure they go back before that.

You have to know which area you want. There is a street index that tells you which microfilm you want. Some later ones are in books in the archive reading room. I remember looking for Peter Lennon in them but can't remember what year I was looking in

Simone x

[simone]

Hi again

Who were the witnesses at Mary Ann's marrige to John Gannon

Also if you are going to the records office anyway, it may be worth getting her marriage to Henry Cowley at St Peters in 1890 so we can see who those witnesses are

Simone x

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi Simone
witnesses to the marriage of John Gannon and Mary Lennon were
Elias Williams and Elizabeth Rigby.

I'll get that Cowley/Gannon cert. when I eventually get down to the LRO. At the start of the school holidays I intend spending a whole day there. Unlike last time, Ill even remember to bring some ID and hope that the lady on the desk doesn't think I'm speaking in a foreign language like she did (or for that matter follow me around thinking I was nicking church records!)

I've done enough looking for today (as I expect you have as well) so I'll say goodnight. Goodnight.

Tony

[simone]

Goodnight Tony

Work tomorrow so I'll look in later on in the day

Simone x

[simone]

Re those witnesses could this be another link then?

1889
RIGBY Ann J LENNON Edward West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool

or these
1876
WILLIAMS Sarah LENNON William Toxteth Park, St. John The Baptist Liverpool

1890
WILLIAMS Robert LENNON Sybil West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool

see you tomorrow

Simone x

[Dominex]

Father of Edward Lennon c1866 Liverpool was James Lennon c 1831 Down, Ireland. Could well have been Thomas's brother.
Edward and Ann are residing with James on the 1891 Walton on the Hill.

Sue

[colette]

Hi all whilst trawling through Johnson St again and the Street behind Standish St..in 1871 i saw a..

5 Standish St
Head James Lennon age 24 Labourer b Lpool
Wife Mary age 21 b Lpool
Son Thomas age 1 b Lpool

As this James is in the street behind were these ellusive Lennon's were surposed to have been living.. i am wondering if he is another son .. as his first born is called Thomas..

John Gannon was also in Standish St at number 25 Nephew of an Edward and Sarah Neary or Meary Edward age 61 Emigrant Agent b Ireland Sarah 50 born Ireland.

John was 22 and a Cork Cutter b Lpool....if this James Lennon is connected to Thomas ...this maybe how Mary Ann met him whilst going round to her brothers house...

I am going to try find this James in 1861 Now... if i carnt then maybe he is part of this Lennon family mistranscribed...
As i said in previous post the lower Courts are missing from the 1871 census for Johnson St... this would explain why the family are not showing up..


Colette

[tonyhennessey1]

Hi Colette
thanks for that very interesting information.
Just a little Technical question. How do you have access to census data through accessing addresses? Ancestry doesnt appear to offer this service. It would make everyone's research a lot easier if they did.
Maybe another petition is warranted (especially since their charges are so expensive).

Another question. If there is missing information from a census year and presuming that you are using Ancestry, is that information elsewhere, like in the LRO?

Tony

Thanks also to the two Sherlocks, Simone and Sue for making more interesting connections.

[simone]

Tony

I think you may as well take your sleeping bag to the Record Office with you when you go You're going to be there a while

Simone x

[Dominex]

Jeez! can't find James anywhere either on 1861 with a mother Mary.

IF the Thomas I found on the boat is the right 1 for 1861, then MAry is going to be alone with kids unless lodging!
With regards to the 1871, if the surname had been mistranscribed, I doubt the name Peter would've been!

Any way of finding out about the Earl of Erne, see if the men could take their families on board with them?

Sue

[colette]

Hi Tony regarding address's on the census.. if you click to go on the 71 for example.. scroll right down to counties.. click Lancashire... then click Liverpool.. then you get all the Wards in Liverpool... as Johnson St was in the Dale St Ward there are 24 districts in that ward..alone

I have the A-Z Edwardian Directory naming all the streets in Lpool.and there locations..... so i click district one to see whereabouts i am .. it names all the streets the emumerator has done in that district, so you keep going District 2 District 3 etc till you find Johnson St..
Its a bit time consuming but you get results..

The other way is to ask if anyone has the 1841,51.61 etc on CD.. they can go straight to the street for you.. i have the 1891 for all Lancs on Discs.

Belive it or not i found a woman on the 1891 the other day for someone.. this woman wasnt showing on the census at all.. we had Great Howard St as the address and a number.. this address was from a marriage cert late 1891.. Bingo there she was infact everyone on the page was not on the Ancestry census.. i searched for all of them and none showed up...

So there has to be loads of pages missing, i guess it depended on what state they were in.
Another lady said Roby St in Bootle was missing as she had a birth cert for the April 1891 and address was Roby St..the family cannot be found... yet they were still at the same address in 1901.

I have never found my husbands Gran and her parents on the 1891 or my own Great Gran and her parents.. so we could just be one of the unlucky ones i guess..

But 51,61,71 & 81 for your Thomas and Mary has to be too unlucky..

I still recon they are in Johnson St in Court 5 in 1871 even John Gannon is in the next street isnt he ..

I have asked a pal of mine to look at the electoral roll for you at the address's you gave for Peters Birth year and Mary Ann's marriage.. also Burlington St were Thomas Died..

Heres hoping he can help...

Chin up Colette