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Hi Martin, great that you find my post of interest. However, as Bertieone mentioned on page 3 of the forum chat, he seems somehow to have either already accessed the Burnley marriage certificate transcription or the certificate itself, and found that the John Johnson on there was a coal miner, and despite what we’ve had said about age discrepancies before, the age differences on this marriage certificate are too varied to make it likely to be correct. However, it’s certainly worth investigating, just in case there is an extra clue on the certificate that might make us reconsider it as feasible! It could be that JFDJ never knew that John Johnson didn’t actually exist. If his mother had always told him that that was the truth, he would never have had any good way of verifying it or finding out it wasn’t true. I will try to post a few screenshot snippets of the documents I mentioned in my earlier post. If they don’t appear, it’s because I haven’t figured out how to post them! I’ll wait to hear your further thoughts when you have time.
No, unfortunately I'm either not authorised to add attachments or else I'm being thick as to how to achieve it. But I'm sure I can send you the various documents later on in our subsequent direct mail discussions Martin.
No, unfortunately I'm either not authorised to add attachments or else I'm being thick as to how to achieve it. But I'm sure I can send you the various documents later on in our subsequent direct mail discussions Martin.
Thanks for that, Bertieone. Think I will wait until I need to sign up to that facility before doing so. As I've already detailed what my snippets said, and the actual documents are only going to be meaningful to Martin, I will send them to him privately at some point in the future. In the meantime, I think I will write to the 3 Ancestry members who also have online public family trees featuring Thomas Holdsworth, to see if they know anything about what happened to his second wife, Lilly Johnson, after the death of Thomas in 1909. That might yield something, even a photo, which would be very precious to me.
Welcome to the forum SuffolkSandry, I don't think I've ever seen such a full and complete summary in response to one of our queries. I hope you and Martin will be able to take your research further to your mutual benefit. Well done Bertie for making the contact which has brought about this great result.
MaryA Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives
Hello SS97 – sorry I don’t know your actual name. Yes, it looks like we are cousins – so Hi – Happy New Year. Yes, the trail I first started on with Sarah Dennison daughter of Peter Dennison and Catherine Langford is almost certainly wrong. I was prompted to research it because of a note left by my uncle John (JFDJ’s son) that Sarah’s parents were Peter & Catherine Dennison. If JFDJ was her son, why is there no sign of him living with her when she was married to Coombes and McDonald? Also, why would a poor girl, daughter of Irish immigrants, go to give birth in Upper Hill Street a relatively smart area the other side of town. If Mrs Truswell was a professional midwife, Sarah would have had to pay. Conditions in the docklands were horrific, the houses were little more than hovels with walls half a brick thick. Families were packed into cellars, lofts and sheds but nevertheless, they usually gave birth at home – which is why there were so many still-borns I expect.
Before I started on the Liverpool Dennisons I did a fair bit of research into the Earls of Londesborough. My mother (JFDJ’s daughter) was convinced of the myth that one of them had fathered my grandfather. So was my grandmother Ethel, JFDJ’s wife. So much so that she gave three of her four children the middle name Denison. My mother also gave me the middle name Denison. When you think about it the idea could likely only have come from JFDJ himself. Not only was he probably mentally disturbed he was also a bit of a charmer – a fantasist and a liar I think. My great aunt Winifred (Ethel’s sister) kept a diary (which was later published by the Daily Mail) in which she recorded that JDFJ was well liked by the family. “He was clever and studious, and an unusual young man”. “He entertained them for hours on end with his great experiences up the Amazon after orchids and many other travels he had taken”. Great Scot – how could they have been taken in? Later “he liked to be the centre of attention”. Interestingly, not a single member of his family was reported at the wedding – which was done at short notice by special licence, maybe because he was on leave from the army.
The Londesboroughs were landed gentry with estates in Londesborough, Yorkshire and homes in Norfolk and London. Their family name was Denison. They had inherited a huge fortune. Census records showed that they employed large numbers of servants largely from around the locality of their homes. These were not all young, some were quite mature and likely career domestic servants. Also, wealthy people in the mid to late 19th century tended not to employ servants from amongst the very poorest in society but rather from presentable working-class families or even lower middle-class families. The 2nd Earl (1864 – 1917) was a bit of a play boy but spent most of his time in London. I couldn’t see how Sarah Dennison from Whitley Street, Liverpool could ever have gained employment with them. Of course, after all the later research we have done it is clear she never left Liverpool in the early years of her life. However, one odd thought occurred to me. Sarah Annie Dennison was from Bradford. Could she have returned to Yorkshire to work for the Londesboroughs early in 1891. Possible but unlikely. Why should she leave Liverpool where she had spent much of her early life? Why leave her family? There would have been plenty of work in Liverpool.
It was Bert who first smelt a rat with the connection to the Whitley Street Dennison family. He clearly has a lot of family history research experience. How on earth he hit on the Bradford Dennisons as a likely better starting point I don’t know – sixth sense I guess.
Picking up a few of your points. I was unable to find Sarah Annie Dennison’s birth certificate. Would it be possible for you to send me a copy. Email would be easiest – available as an option on this forum site far right side of page, click on ‘contact’ bubble. I have a different date for her birth: 17th June 1857, I think this is what appears on her baptism record which of course could be an error.
Next, you mention that you think the Dennison’s were comfortably off. I wonder where you got this from other than by inference. The reason I ask is that my grandfather obviously qualified at some moderately high level. So this means he wasn’t packed off to work as soon as he was 15 or so. So somebody could afford to fund his passage through education. I originally thought he was university educated – possibly at Trinity College Dublin (he later had a job in Dublin). I got in touch with the TCD alumni association but their records do not go back far enough. However, I now think I’m wrong. He was already describing himself as an analytical chemist at age 19 which is too young to have gone through university. I also noticed from my great aunt’s diary and my uncle’s notes that in July 1918 he started a course at Trinity College, Cambridge. He was sent to “learn all there was to know about ‘gas’”. Presumably he was sent by the army; he wasn’t demobbed until February 1919. Maybe this was where the university education mistake came from.
I reason therefore that he received his higher education at some sort of technical school probably in Liverpool. There was a Liverpool Technical School I think on Byrom Street, Liverpool but I don’t know what subjects they dealt with or whether or not it was free. From old photos the building looks suspiciously similar in style to St George’s Hall if my memory is correct. (I spent 4 years as a student in Liverpool in the late 1960s.)
Next, regarding the Manchester baptism, maybe you are right, the John Denison is a fake. However, it doesn’t take us anywhere so it doesn’t matter much.
Regarding the 1900 marriage, I know that Bert seems to have discounted it on the grounds of ages (which could be false) and occupation. I have found a John W Johnson and Sarah A in the 1901 census living in Burnley, not far from Bolton. Yes the ages are wrong and he was a coal miner and Sarah was born in Portsmouth but I’m not sure if this is the same couple. Probably Bert found the same record. I’m not sure if he found the actual marriage certificate but I felt that I had to rule it out. It is the only loose end that could possibly hold the key.
As I said earlier, the Bloomfield information makes the conclusions about JFDJ pretty watertight. My grandfather wrote once in 1914 to my grandmother giving the address Bloomfields, South Villas. The South Villas were once a group of 4 privately built houses only two of which are now standing (you can spot one on Google Earth).
Also the mention in Walter Taylor’s will of “John FD Johnson, wife’s nephew” is conclusive. It is also the first time the initials FD are used in his connection with the Taylors. In the censuses he was only referred to as John Johnson. Now we can be sure which John Johnson it was.
Interesting that he was in a psychiatric hospital in 1957 so many years after he disappeared. In my uncles notes he spent two spells in Brentwood Mental Hospital in 1926 and 1932 and was once found ‘wandering in Hyde Park’.
I think your suggestion about DNA is good and may try it. The only problem is that I don’t have access to Ancestry.co.uk only to Ancestry.com (the US version) through the account held by step sister in Oregon. She has had her DNA checked and has one free go left on her account which she has offered to me. I’m not sure of the logistics of getting my sample to the US. I will ask her.
What would be most interesting would be to track down some of the Prescot Road Fleming’s descendants in Liverpool and try to persuade them to do a DNA test. Tricky.
Finally, although any link with Ireland seemed to have disappeared when we ruled out the Whitley Street Sarah Dennison, a new one has appeared. John Fleming the elder and his wife were both born in Ireland.
The only mystery remaining is that surrounding ‘Lillian Johnson’. Surely we must be able to get to the bottom of it. I’ll keep trying. When she married in 1906 she claimed she was a widow. When going through a religious ceremony would she have lied in such a way. I think there’s a 50/50 chance she was married to a Johnson at some time.
Meanwhile thanks again for getting in touch. Let me know any more thoughts you have. Martin.
As far as the Burnley marriage goes, I haven't seen the marriage certificate, it is easy to track the couple after 1900 with the aid of the 1901/1911 census', children registrations at the GRO.
It was the only John Johnson/Sarah Dennison marriage between 1870 and 1901. His father was Bolton Johnson, never bothered to pursue that Sarah's background, dismissed because of ages, occupation and they were still together within the time frame we are interested in.
I still maintain that Sarah/Lilly and John Johnson, Ships Officer, could have had a relationship and Sarah/Lilly considered it a marriage for, if you like, respectability purposes.
The problem is, it likely took place between 1892 and 1901, void of any records. We all know the other problem, he could have died anywhere in the world or at sea.
The other that needs taking into account, if a person flip flops their name, they can do it again. After Thomas Holdsworth died, it may have suited Lilly to become Sarah again which adds to the confusion.
Thank you so much to you Bert for all your input, Martin for your latest update and Mary for your last kind comment. Martin and I are now corresponding directly to learn about and share our overlapping ancestry. I am so grateful to this site for putting us in touch. If anyone reading this in the future has any extra information or theories to contribute, I'm sure we would all love to hear from you!
As you say, mission accomplished - or almost. I too would like to thank both you and Mary for all the help you gave me. Without you and your sixth sense and experience I would not have discovered so much.
I am sure you are right about the Johnson/Denison marriage in Bolton. However, as a scientist my training tells me that there is no real proof until all other possible hypotheses have been disproved. The certificate I ordered is on its way - likely to disprove an alternative possibility. I'll let you know if otherwise.
You are probably right about how/why Sarah changed her name to Lillian Johnson.
There is one stone as yet not turned. My grandmother Ethel (JFDJ's wife) kept a diary. My aunt Tertia her youngest daughter is still alive aged 96. She has the diary but for some reason has always been unwilling to show it to anyone. She was an infant when JFDJ 'disappeared' so never knew him. My cousin, her daughter, says that she did once have a brief skim through the diary long ago and she thinks she remembers the phrase "I must contact Lillian". She is going to have another go at getting hold of the diary. I doubt myself that it will reveal much but you never know. If it does, I will post again.
Also, I plan to get my DNA tested. Could prove interesting particularly if it shows any Irish antecedents - the Fleming parents were both born in Dublin. Also you never know, one day I might get my boots on and start looking for Flemings in Liverpool. I'll keep you posted.
Once again, thank you and keep safe. Regards, Martin.
Remember that there are many reasons for keeping something like a diary private, you never know what mysteries might be resolved, not necessarily the one you think you are searching for
Good luck!
MaryA Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives
“He entertained them for hours on end with his great experiences up the Amazon after orchids and many other travels he had taken”. Great Scot – how could they have been taken in? Later “he liked to be the centre of attention”.
There are at least 2 merchant records,
John F Johnson, RMS Carmania, 1908, given address, 14 Morpeth St, home of Thomas Holdsworth.
John F Johnson, SS Muraji, 1910, given address, 24 Kimberley Rd, Liscard, home of Walter Taylor.
That's so interesting Bert! Where have you accessed all that information about the military records of JFDJ? Is it likely to be something I can access on my Ancestry worldwide subscription please?
Bert, that's fascinating but I can't make sense of it. In 1908 JFDJ would have been 17, in 1910 he would have been 19. If he was travelling where did he have the chance to study for his qualification. I'll have to read through it six more times before I can figure it out.
How can this saga have any more twists and turns ??? !!!
SS97 ... I have his full military record if you want.
Martin.
Looking for Sarah/Lilly in 1911, the below is an inconclusive find, yet a possibility, going with the theory she might have started using her original name again.
Initially the census form was filled incorrectly and has been altered, possibly the question misunderstood, this Sarah had been married and has had one child.
I'm not clear if she was a housekeeper at this establishment or elsewhere, you need to look at the previous sheet,
Annie Simpson, Boarding house for young girls,
23 Gt George Sq, Liverpool.
RG14, P22201
This could be the reason John Johnson was living in Liscard, 1911, with his Auntie. He couldn't live with his mother?
Bert, it seems possible that the John L Johnson who served on the Carmania, Muraji and Lusitania was JFDJ's mysterious father - Ships Officer. The first two sailed the Liverpool - West Africa route, the lusitania Lpl to New York. It doesn't seem to reveal much about the 'up the Amazon' story.
I got the certificate from Lancashire today. Yes, the Johnson/Denison couple who married in Burnley were the ones later living in Bolton, he a coal miner she a cotton weaver. Father Bolton Johnson. I can hear you saying 'I told you so'' ! !
The Sarah Holdsworth in Gt Georges Sq is certainly intriguing.
Martin.
However, as Bertieone mentioned on page 3 of the forum chat, he seems somehow to have either already accessed the Burnley marriage certificate transcription or the certificate itself, and found that the John Johnson on there was a coal miner, and despite what we’ve had said about age discrepancies before, the age differences on this marriage certificate are too varied to make it likely to be correct. However, it’s certainly worth investigating, just in case there is an extra clue on the certificate that might make us reconsider it as feasible! 
It could be that JFDJ never knew that John Johnson didn’t actually exist. If his mother had always told him that that was the truth, he would never have had any good way of verifying it or finding out it wasn’t true. I will try to post a few screenshot snippets of the documents I mentioned in my earlier post. If they don’t appear, it’s because I haven’t figured out how to post them! I’ll wait to hear your further thoughts when you have time. 
But I'm sure I can send you the various documents later on in our subsequent direct mail discussions Martin.
That's so interesting Bert! Where have you accessed all that information about the military records of JFDJ? Is it likely to be something I can access on my Ancestry worldwide subscription please?
