Was he Dennison or Johnson ?

[Bertieone]

Sarah Coombes/McDonald marriage, haven't yet found Dennison/ Coombes image on Ancestry.



Lancashire BMD,

[Bertieone]

For those who can't access the 1916 marriage,

[MaryA]

10 February 1890 at St Augustin, Liverpool
Thomas Coombes of 1 Maddrell Street, father Alfred Coombes and
Sarah Denison of 12 Whitley Street, father Peter? Denison
Witnesses James Hegarty, 12 Whitley Street
Emma Hegarty, 12 Whitley Street

[MaryA]

I have come a little late to the party but nevertheless I can add a little towards the latin, although I usually just accept a name, date and hopefully church from the notes. Please don't accept his as gospel, just my interpretation, which concurs with the marriage that Bertie found.

Between Sarah Denison (later name Coombes) on 25 September 1909 marriage contracted with Thomas McDonnell to take place in St Mary's, Liverpool.

So far as the burial entries are concerned, they are both for the same date, person and grave, the duplication is merely an extra administrative diary which, since it exists and is obviously copied at the Liverpool Record Office, then Ancestry has taken a copy of it.

[Martin-46]

Bert,
I have only just worked out the obvious (with Mary's help) that I can post a public reply.
I think I have found that Thomas McDonald held a Second Mate's ticket. I wonder if my grandfather ever went back to his mother. If he did, then his stepfather was indeed a Ship's Officer as he stated later in life,
I would like to find out more about John and Sarah Denison in Manchester; the christening record certainly looks very likely to be my grandfather. How many John Fleming's could there have been.
I am still curious about why his mother registered him with the middle name Fleming and why he later came to adopt the surname Johnson.
I think you are right about the latin scribble on Sarah's baptism record. But who was responsible for reporting to the same church that she married Thomas McDonald. How would she have known where she was baptised? And anyway, why would someone take the trouble to report her marriage 30 years or so later?

Thanks again. Martin

[Martin-46]

Bert, also, my grandfather received a good education. Who paid for it? Could it have been the Manchester Denison's. Perhaps he made a good living amongst Victorian/Edwardian middle and upper classes as a phrenologist ! Martin.

[Bertieone]

Martin,

For fathers to be named at birth registration they had to be present, unless circumstances prevented this, Servicemen for example serving abroad, etc.

In which case, form filling and documentation provided.

Sarah may have wanted to include the father's name and was prevented from doing so for legal reasons. I/We have come across previously, prompted by the registrar to include the father's name as a middle name.

However, the middle name Fleming may have come down from past generations, this is a widely used tradition in Scotland for example, surnames from GG Grandparents used as middle names. It may become apparent the further back you go.

I can't give a definitive answer why the marriage is added to the baptism, it only appears to be occasional and not compulsory, perhaps she had to give proof of Baptism, hence the recording. Hopefully someone can give a better answer.

I might be sticking my neck out but I think most people know where they were baptised, oddly enough I do and I've never stepped foot in the place since.

[Bertieone]

Bert, also, my grandfather received a good education. Who paid for it? Could it have been the Manchester Denison's. Perhaps he made a good living amongst Victorian/Edwardian middle and upper classes as a phrenologist ! Martin.

Depending where he was educated, at the time of John Fleming's education, it was available free if required.

[MaryA]

Martin, glad you got it figured out, it's so much easier for you.

I think you are right about the latin scribble on Sarah's baptism record. But who was responsible for reporting to the same church that she married Thomas

In RC Churches the priest should have confirmed that those coming to be married were baptised into the faith, this still happens sometimes now, but it was never comprehensive so it's useful when it does happen, on occasions I've come across an adult baptism shortly before a marriage so that the person has converted into Catholicism. Sarah would have gone to the church she was baptised and asked for proof of her baptism and the priest wrote in the register the details of her forthcoming marriage.

I don't know what sort of proof it would have been but I imagine a letter from the priest, there wouldn't have been photocopiers at that time

[Martin-46]

Thank you so much Bert and Mary for helping so much. I couldn't have done without it. A lot of interesting discoveries.
Mary, I see there are several Mill Streets in Manchester. How would I go about checking others?
Also, Bert, I'm sure what you say is correct about 'handed down' middle names but I still think there is something fishy. Neither Sarah Dennison or her several brothers and sisters, not her parents had middle names. I don't think it would be likely for mid 19th century Irish immigrants (likely peasants fleeing from famine or clearances) to have had any Flemings in their ancestry. There were a few Flemings in Ireland at that time (a couple well known) but there were many more in England and Scotland. In fact Lancashire was loaded with them; 22% of all Flemings in England were in Lancashire in the 1890s.
I tried putting a few other Denisons into Ancestry.com but came up with nothing. I wonder if the John and Sarah Denison of Mill Street, Manchester could have been Sarah's grandparents. She could have been named after her grandmother.
When I said a 'good' education, I meant good. He qualified as an Analytical Chemist and held some very good jobs. We think he studied at Trinity College Dublin. I've been in touch with the Alumni people there but their records do no go back far enough. To be so well qualified he must have gone to a university or some higher technical college, if such existed at that time. I imagine that around 1910 such an education was not readily accessible for the 'lower classes' or the poorer in society. However he achieved it, I would have thought it must have cost a lot of money - not least for his subsistence alone. He later studied at Trinity College Cambridge for a short while.
I will continue pursuing the Fleming connection and also the curious mention of phrenology. I don't think I will ever get to the bottom of why he assumed the surname Johnson later in life.
Once again, thank you both very much. Martin.

[Bertieone]

Martin,

The Analytical Chemist you mention I assume is John Johnson (Nephew) in 1911 living with Walter Taylor & wife Mary Taylor, 24 Kimberly Rd, Liscard, Wallasey, Cheshire.

Walter Taylor married Elizabeth Mary Dennison, 1899, St Saviour, Liverpool.

Elizabeth Mary's father, deceased at the time of the marriage. Jonathan Dennison.

The above family in 1901 are living at 70 myrtle St, Liverpool,

Walter Taylor
Elizabeth M Taylor,
Lillian Johnson, sister in law
John Johnson, nephew

[Bertieone]

Elizabeth Mary's parents marriage.

[Bertieone]

1871 census, 3 Hyde Ave, Headingley & Burley.
RG10 P4572 F38 page12

Jonathan Dennison 54, Dye Merchant.
Elizabeth Dennison 40
Sarah Annie Dennison 13
Emily Dennison 11
Alice Dennison 9
James Dennison 7
Mary Eliza Dennison 4

the children all ended up in Liverpool

the above children all received a Wesleyan Baptism.

I feel an itch coming on.

[Bertieone]

1911 census

[MaryA]

You have cetainly been busy Bert, some excellent work there.

To answer another question, there is the possibility you might find occupants of 125 Mill Street in Trade/Street directories, there are some online https://cdm16445.contentdm.oclc.org/dig ... 16445coll4
but I would also suggest that you join the Manchester & Lancashire Forum (google as I don't have the address) and get friendly with some of the posters on there, they may hold their own copies of directories and family history researchers are always happy to help if they can.

Have you given any thought to my earlier comment. With DNA matches it might be possible to search others trees for the surnames of interest.

research seems to be very comprehensive and all I am able to add is that if his mother didn't put a father's name on the birth certificate, there is no way, for certain, of discovering his identity through documentary evidence alone. Although it's not something we could expertly advise upon here, we could make suggestions for groups who could assist/advise if you decided to go down the line of DNA testing.

[Martin-46]

Bert, you are so clever at digging out information, can’t imagine how you do it. All that you have found is very intriguing.

Although some of the evidence is circumstantial and the conclusions are by inference only, as far as I can put things together, it seems possible my grandfather’s mother, Sarah Dennison, passed her child as an infant into someone else’s care because he does not show up in any later censuses as living with her. Whether or not he was the son of her first husband Thomas Coombes we may never know.

The people who had him in their care for some part of the first year of his life (and perhaps beyond) were probably John and Sarah Denison of Mill Street, Manchester. They may or may not have been family but in any event the record shows that they baptised an infant named John Fleming (born 4th December 1891, my grandfather’s birth date) on 11th September 1892 claiming to be his parents – so they probably were not his grandparents because the priest wouldn’t have swallowed an older couple with a one year old child.

In 1901 a child aged 9 named John Johnson is shown in Census records to be living at 70 Myrtle Street (I assume I’ve read your post correctly), Liverpool in the household of Walter Taylor a clerk aged 24 and his wife Elizabeth M Taylor aged 31 (a tobacconist !); also present at the address was Lillian Johnson aged 40 the sister-in-law of Walter Taylor. By inference Lillian was thus John’s ‘mother’ and probably Walter's wife’s sister.

Marriage records show that a Walter Taylor aged 28, an accountant, married an Elizabeth Mary Dennison aged 29 (address 70 Myrtle Street) in 1899.

The problem here is that the ages work out all wrong; but the address is tantalising.

It is possible, but to me seems improbable, that Walter Taylor’s wife was the daughter of Jonathan Dennison and Elizabeth Mary Turner who married in Leeds in 1856. Although one of their children was called Mary Eliza (a near match), she was 4 at the time of the 1871 Census and thus 32 in 1899. Whereas Walter Taylor’s wife was 29 at their wedding in 1899 and she was from York not Leeds. Furthermore, the Dennisons from Leeds did not have a daughter called Lillian.

The Census record for 1911 showing Walter Taylor and wife Mary living in Liscard with nephew John Johnson is also tantalising. But again the ages don’t work out. Walter and his wife would have been 40 and 41 respectively whereas they are recorded as 34 and 35. John Johnson’s age of 19 does work out OK and the fact that he is recorded as an Analytical Chemist is fascinating.

Also intriguing is that my grandfather did have an address in Liscard in 1914 according to a letter he sent to my grandmother. The address was ‘Bloomfields’ South Villas, Liscard.

A lot of intriguing information but a lot of fog as well. I don’t know what to make of it all !

Martin.

[Bertieone]

Martin,

I can tell you without fear of contradiction and everyone on this forum who has experience in research will agree, ages on documentation can't be taken as gospel. We have all experienced the same and of course adds confusion, the reasons are numerous, you just have to use other clues and work around it.

Elizabeth Mary Dennison's birth registration.


Some people prefer to use their middle name until it's time for officialdom, marriage for example, etc.

I agree, I couldn't find Lillian Johnson, yet another mystery to solve, however what's the odds, John Johnson, Chemist, living with a married Dennison and finally ending up in Liscard, Wallasey.

I know you have or seen sight of John Fleming Dennison's birth certificate with only mothers name on it plus address, Upper Hill St.

Can you tell us how you got back to Patrick Dennison & Catherine

[MaryA]

I can tell you without fear of contradiction and everyone on this forum who has experience in research will agree, ages on documentation can't be taken as gospel. We have all experienced the same and of course adds confusion, the reasons are numerous, you just have to use other clues and work around it.

I most definitely concur with that statement.

[Martin-46]

Bert, I bow to your experience in the matter of discrepancies in ages - although there are rather a lot here. Despite the 'fog' it does seem to me you are on the right trail. The fact that the age of the 'nephew' fits on both occasions and the household is Walter Taylor on both occasions seems fairly convincing.

Yes, I have a certified copy of Sarah Dennison's birth certificate: Liverpool, Saint Martin 4th June 1870. Father Peter Dennison occ. Labourer. Mother Catherine Dennison formerly Langford. Informant : 'X' "the mark of Catherine Dennison mother Regent Street".

There is the possibility that Walter Taylor's sister-in-law Lillian Johnson was his brother's wife rather than his wife's sister. But at least it gives a suggestion of how my grandfather came to pick up the surname Johnson. Perhaps she adopted him either formally or otherwise?

[Martin-46]

If Lillian Johnson and Walter Taylor's wife were sisters (meaning that Lillian was a Dennison also), it seems to me that it is a complete fluke that they share their surname with my grandfather's mother because the Yorkshire Dennisons look as if they were well heeled and long established in Yorkshire with little likelihood they came from Ireland ????