John STAFFORD of Tranmere

[donjen]

It's been suggested that there could be information on this forum relating to my gx3 uncle, John Stafford who was born on the 22nd of April 1815 & baptized at Leeds St, Wesleyan, Liverpool on the 7th of May 1815. He was the 2nd child of John & Mary Stafford (nee Kinsey or Webster) who are buried at St Peter's, Plemstall - and I often wonder why it was that they were both buried there, in a substantial 'tomb' right at the front door of the church. Mary is just another of my brick walls as she appears as nee Webster on their son Joseph's baptismal record in 1812 & their daughter Elizabeth's baptismal record in 1817 but as Kinsey on this John's record in 1815. Plenty of time to look for her forebears now we're in the covid-19 lockdown!!

Thanks to a suggestion passed on to me on the LSWLFHS Facebook page it would seem that my assumption that John's wife was an Ann Walker was more than likely wrong and that her name was actually Ann Jones. The reason I thought her name could've been Walker was because two of their children were given Walker as a middle name, one of the many 'patterns' so often followed. I do know that John Stafford (husband of Mary Kinsey) had a brother Benjamin who married Elizabeth Walker so I'm fairly sure that'd be where the 'Walker' middle names would've come from. However I'm more than happy for her to be Ann Jones and especially after being led to the record of the marriage in Mouldsworth, Runcorn, Cheshire (Vol 19, page 151).

There was a John Stafford who died on the Wirral in 1856 (Vol 8a Page 286, aged 37) so I'm wondering if this is the above John?

When I checked on GRO.UK there are deaths recorded there for two John Walker Staffords (both in/on the Wirral), one in 1846, aged 1 (Mother's name Jones but doesn't give his middle name on the birth record), and one in 1860 aged 0 (Mother's name Hughes) so that in itself is interesting. Another twig to follow up as none of Benjamin & Elizabeth (nee Walker) Stafford's sons married a Hughes. The last child of John & Ann (nee Jones) Stafford was named Sarah Walker Stafford - she died a spinster at the age of 49.

While this family are only peripheral to my direct Stafford line, it's only recently that I've found records for John who was my gx2 grandfather's brother and I'm doing my best to get his life story correct on my tree.

It appears that Staffords were pretty thick on the ground around Tranmere! Any light that can be thrown on this family would be greatly appreciated.

Wishing everyone good health in this era of covid-19,

Jenny Grant
Mittagong, NSW, Australia

[Bertieone]

Hi Jenny and welcome,

It was on my behalf Mary kindly sent the messages over to you.

Based on your response to Alex I found the following and I hope it gives you confidence when ordering the death certificate for John Stafford.

Also I hope you found it useful the marriage of John Stafford and Ann Jones, 1838 Frodsham, the children I checked from the 1851 census are registered to a mother, maiden name, Jones. Oddly, Jesse is recorded as daughter on the census and yet registered with the GRO as male.

Image below, Liverpool Mercury, 14 January, 1856.



The area where they lived

[Bertieone]

I should add,

It appears the fathers of the Frodsham marriage were, Benjamin Stafford/John Jones, which doesn't sit kindly with the 1815 baptism?

[Bertieone]

John Stafford married Mary Webster, widow of this parish, 1812, St Paul's, Liverpool

Mary Kinsey married John Webster, 1801, St Peter, Liverpool

[donjen]

mThank you so much for all that information Bert but more questions have been thrown up as a result! Re the brother living in Walker St as reported in the paper, 'my' John only had one brother and that was my gx2 grandfather Joseph who in 1856 was living in Australia. However if the records I've found for Mary's first marriage are correct, she & John had a daughter Mary (b. 1802), a son John (b. 1804) both born in Croston, and a daughter Hannah (b 1810) born in Farnworth (that's a big gap between the last two!). It may be that the brother referred to in the newspaper article was either his half-brother John or the husband of either Mary or Hannah. I don't know how to look at census information by street but Walker St doesn't look very long so it'd be interesting to see who else lived there. I'll see what I can find later on. The other problem of course is the Frodsham/Mouldsworth/Runcorn marriage record showing John's father as Benjamin when 'my' John's father's name was John. (He did have an Uncle Benjamin though!). The only record I have doesn't show the names of the fathers. And in 1856 he should've been 41, not 38. I know there can be a lot of movement in the ages recorded in the censuses, but this discrepancy shouldn't be that much if the family had known when he was born. Having said that his father died in 1837, his mother in 1841, his brother Joseph was in Australia and his sister Elizabeth was more than likely in London where her husband was working as a chemist & druggist (heading towards spending the rest of his & their lives in and out of the workhouse!).

If you're interested Bert, I can send you an invitation to view my Street/Grant Family Tree on Ancestry which has all the information I have (both confirmed & unconfirmed) on this family.

Thanks again for your interest.

With best wishes,
Jenny

[donjen]

John & Ann's first child Benjamin was born in 1839 in Manley & baptized at Alvanley, in very close proximity to Mouldsworth where they were married. By the time their second child Elizabeth was born in 1841, the family were in Birkenhead. However in the 1841 census they were recorded as being in Tarvin. Two years later their sons James & Joseph were born in Alvanley, and the last four children were born in Tranmere/Higher Tranmere. Because all those children were born in close proximity to Mouldsworth, that marriage really does look like it's the right one ..... except for Benjamin!

I also wonder how it came to be that Mary Stafford nee Kinsey died at 21 St Paul's Square, Liverpool? Then of course, she & John Snr are both buried in Plemstall which is only 7 miles from Mouldsworth.

Just thinking out loud Bert!

[Bertieone]

Jenny,

The problem is, the John who died in 1856, Walker St, his brother may not have been in the area in 1851.

I think the John Stafford/Ann Jones family is nailed on, so can't be the John Stafford born to Mary Kinsley/Webster.

With his father being Benjamin, it is possible he is the son of Stafford/Walker, though keep in mind that, that John was born Manchester? not Liverpool as recorded on the 1851 census. What is in favour are the children with the middle name Walker.

[donjen]

I'm tending to think Bert that the 'Walker' middle name has come as a nod to John's Uncle Benjamin's wife, Elizabeth Walker. I'm going to look further to see where the Stafford-Hughes marriage fits in as their infant son was named John Walker Stafford. Benjamin was born in 1793 in Sandal Magna Yorkshire and died in Tranmere in 1850. His brother was John (married to Mary Kinsey/Webster) who was born in 1789 also in Sandal Magna and died in Higher Tranmere in 1837. It just seems too much of a coincidence that this isn't the right family when their lives were so intertwined. Also in 1891 John & Mary's daughter Elizabeth was living with her cousin (in-law), William Stafford, son of Benjamin. Do you think there's a remote possibility that there was an error made in naming Benjamin as John's father? I'd order their marriage record but I guess that would only show the same details.

[Bertieone]

I wouldn't order the marriage cert, not at this point in time, I doubt very much there's a mistake made.

Though not conclusive proof by any means, an indication would be in the naming of the children after their grandparents, Benjamin, Elizabeth, John and eventually Hannah, amazing how many times that turns up trumps during that period of time.

[donjen]

I’ll think on all this overnight Bert! I’m sure all will be revealed in time!

[Bertieone]

I'm going to look further to see where the Stafford-Hughes marriage fits in as their infant son was named John Walker Stafford.

I assume the marriage was, Benjamin Stafford/Mary Hughes, 1859, Liverpool reg office or registrar attended, I suspect reg office as the children were baptised at St Catherine's, Tranmere, Church of England.

Possible children born to the marriage,

John Walker Stafford, 1860, died same year and buried in Bebington.
Joseph Walker Stafford, 1861,
Samuel Stafford, 1863,
Charles Stafford, 1868

No way of finding out online who Benjamin's father was with being married in Registry office?

Perhaps John Stafford/Ann Jones son?

[Bertieone]

Benjamin Stafford,
Died, 1879,
Bradford, Yorkshire, West Riding,
Aged, 40.

1881 census.
Mary Stafford
46
Joseph Walker Stafford
19
James Street, Bradford,
RG11, P4472, F32, Page14

[donjen]

I'm sorry I missed the notification to say that you'd sent me a message a few hours ago Bert!! In the meantime I found that marriage between Benjamin Stafford & Mary Hughes in 1859 in Liverpool, Lancs. 8B 435 in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915 on Ancestry so it doesn't give Benjamin's father's name. I don't know where else there'd be a record which would show that although there are 54 results on FindMyPast but I don't have a subscription, just a few credits left!

It's really interesting that Benjamin & Mary had a son named Joseph Walker Stafford ... this has to be the right marriage for Benjamin ... but who was his father?!!!

I really appreciate your perseverance Bert ... thank you.

[Bertieone]

If he was married in a registry office, the details will not be online.

His children were Baptised at St Catherine's, a stones throw from Walker Street, my best guess he is John Stafford/Ann Jones son.

The above death record, age?

[Bertieone]

1861 census with transcription error,

Name:
Benjamin Hafford
Age:
21
Estimated birth year:
1840
Relation:
Head
Spouse's name:
Mary Hafford
Gender:
Male
Where born:
Manley, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish:
Birkenhead
Ecclesiastical parish:
Holy Trinity
Town:
Birkenhead
County/Island:
Cheshire
Country:
England

[Bertieone]

1871,

Name:
Benjamin Strafford
Age:
32
Estimated birth year:
1839
Relation:
Head
Gender:
Male
Where born:
Maley Cheshire England
Civil Parish:
Allerton
Ecclesiastical parish:
Wilsden St Matthew
County/Island:
Yorkshire
Country:
England
Registration district:
Bradford
Mary Stafford
Joseph Walker Stafford

[donjen]

Thanks for those records Bert. I came across a whole heap of St Affords the other day!

[Bertieone]

At least we now know, John Stafford, Walker St, is not the son of Stafford/Kinsey/Webster.

[donjen]

Hi again Bert.

So I wonder what happened to my John after his father died in 1837 and the business partnership was dissolved. His mother lived on for another 4 years & just 6 months before she died my gx2 grandfather Joseph emigrated to Australia (as a cabin passenger!). Mary was recorded as living in Dutton Court/Dale St Liverpool in the 1841 census which I imagine was taken in mid-year and according to her death certificate she died of asthma at 21 St Paul's Square, not far from Dale Street. Dutton Court & Dutton Street seems to have been gobbled up over time! The census shows that she was born outside the county which makes me think once again that she was born in Cheshire. Finding her forebears will be back on my agenda along with continuing to see what happened to John. There are Staffords in America so maybe he went there. In 1841 they would've thought that their sister Elizabeth was comfortably off and able to manage due to her inheritance and the fact that she was to be married to James Sheldon who when his father died inherited a small fortune! The address given on Elizabeth's marriage certificate was Old Hall St, again not very far from where Mary died.

Even though so many of the old areas of Liverpool have disappeared, I do get a bit of a feeling for the place having visited there in 2017. My cousin & I did the Magical Mystery Tour as well as exploring the Albert Dock and the Slavery Museum ... on the whole, very sad. We were staying in Hooton so we enjoyed the trip across the Mersey along with the accompanying Gerry & the Pacemakers music!

Anyway Bert, thank you again so much for your interest in the Staffords which hopefully will be solved in time. There are a few loose ends to follow up, aren't there!

Stay well and out of the way of this dreaded virus.

Bye for now,

Jenny

[MaryA]

I don't know where else there'd be a record which would show that although there are 54 results on FindMyPast but I don't have a subscription, just a few credits left!

Please familiarise yourself with the UKBMD sites, particularly for Liverpol LancashireBMD.org.uk, where if the marriage took place in a C of E church then the name is given, if however as yours says, "Register Office or Registrar Attended" it means that the ceremony took place in either a Register Office, an RC Church or a Non Conformist.

I checked the RC church records without any success so we can only assume as Bert has said, that the marriage took place in a Register Office, although that's fairly unusual at that date, so perhaps a non conformist church to which we may not have access to the records and also don't have very much clue as to which one.

As for the middle name Walker, I have a middle name in my own family that actually goes back three generations before I discovered the lady who had passed her surname down, so you may need to think further back, just keep it in mind for the time being and one day a clue will pop up.