The Murray Family of Liverpool

[winstonevertongroovy]

So just spent another few hours trawling through this thread and the info I have myself and there seems to be so many discrepancies that I really don't know what the next step should be. My nins d.o.b. seems to be a problem as it looks like she may have lied at her wedding plus the ages of Peter (Patrick), Grace and George seem wrong, at least on the 1901 census, could they be 2 different families with similar names? I'm going to subscribe to Ancestry for a month, (will get a full subscription when I can afford it), any ideas what my 1st step should be?, get my granddad and his parents details sorted maybe?

1881 Census – RG11 3658/90 Page 20 (Family History Library Film 1341876)
72 Rose Vale
Peter (Patrick) Murray 49 Ireland Telegraph Worker 1832?
Grace (Carruthers) 46 Scotland 1835
George 10 Scotland 1871
Thomas 6 Scotland 1875
Anthony 0 (4 months) Liverpool 1881
Elizabeth Bell 16 Scotland 1865 (Servant/Visitor)
Anthony Carruthers 40 Electrician Annan Dumfries (Head of the family?)
Catherine Carruthers 44 Tailoress

Peter possibly Patrick on 1891 Census (RG 12 Piece 2944 Folio 101 Page 16)

1891 Census
Patrick 50
Grace 48
George 20
Thomas 14
Peter 8
Anthony Carruthers 50

1901 Census – RG13 Piece 3481 Folio 186 Page 40
7 House, 18 Court, Prince Edwin Street
Peter Murray 54 (Telephone wireman Ireland)
Grace F 53 (Scotland)
Peter 19 Carter
George 33
Sarah 32 (George & Sarah married)
Thomas 7
Susannah 1 (George & Sarahs children)

[Bertieone]

Lee,

Sometimes the ages given can be very confusing and you wonder where they got them from, or what their motive was for giving false information if they did.

However, you have to join the positive dots between census and what joins the families together from census to census.

From 1881 to 1891, Peter/Patrick, similar/same occupation, Anthony Carruthers, similar/same occupation, Grace, George, Thomas, Peter.

1901, Peter, similar/same occupation, Grace, birth place, same, George, Peter.

It appears Peter and Patrick are the same person, what you may have to check out is a marriage in Scotland, (Scotland's People)

Patrick Murray
Grace Carruthers
1871, Tradeston, Glasgow.

Also a Baptism, (Ancestry)


Name

George Edward Carruthers Murray


Mother

Grace Carruthers


Father

Patrick Murray


Birth

10/02/1871 Hutchesontown,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland

Scotland's People,
MURRAY

GEORGE E CARRUT

M

1871

644/10 540

Hutchesontown

Probably give fathers and husbands occupation, etc.

[Bertieone]

Further proof linking the families, 1891/1901,

Address, Prince Edwin St

Marriage,

[Bertieone]

I think this is the family, allowing for transcription errors.(Ancestry)
To see the actual census page, it will be available on Scotland's People

I've added names in brackets.


1871 Scotland Census

Name:
Patrick Menor (Murray)
Age:
26
Estimated birth year:
abt 1845
Relationship:
Son-in-law
Gender:
Male
Where born:
Ireland
Registration Number:
644/10
Registration district:
Hutchesontown
Civil Parish:
Glasgow Gorbals
County:
Lanarkshire
Address:
33 Muirhead St
Occupation:
Telegraph Worker
ED:
97
Household schedule number:
97
Line:
11
Roll:
CSSCT1871_142
Household Members:


Helen Carruthers 62
Charlotte Carruthers 32
Grace Carruthers 30
Thomas Carruthers 19
Patrick Menor 26 (Murray)
William Carrethers 10
Elizabeth Carrethers 5
George E Morrow 9mo (Murray) Possibly, 9 weeks?

[Bertieone]

Family members 1861 Scotland census,(Ancestry) includes Anthony Carruthers,

John Carruthers 55
Helen Carruthers 52
Anthony Carruthers 21
George Carruthers 12
Thomas Carruthers 10
Carlotte Carruthers 25
Grace Carruthers 23
Janet Carruthers 6

[winstonevertongroovy]

Bert you're a star!, I took out a subscription to Ancestry last night and started a 14 day trial with Find My Past, (although it seems you're limited in what you can do on a trial), also joined Scotlands People and got so far then discovered I need to pay for tokens or something before going further which is fine. I was quite worried with the age differences but as you say there is enough other evidence to convince me they are the right family, I did at one point however discover another Peter Murray who was born in the same year as my granddad which really threw me until I discovered the poor lad had died age 13. I will spend another few hours on it tonight and see how far I get.

[Bertieone]

Lee,

It is possible to fiddle your way through Scots People to a point, but it's inevitable you will have to buy credits.

Use wisely, they soon go.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Am I imagining things now or is it possible for information to appear on your Ancestry family tree without you putting it in yourself?

[Bertieone]

Not that I'm aware, you can have a guest visit your tree, but they can't add, remove or change anything to do with your tree.

I suspect only someone with your log in details could.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Well I know my memory is shot but I really don't recall some of the info I have in fact I'm amazed at it!

[winstonevertongroovy]

Well, I've spent most of the day searching records and I've spent I don't know how many hours this week searching records and I know it's nothing compared to what a lot of you guys put in but I am about ready to quit, (again), and I'll tell you why, every step of the way seems to be about getting more money from you and nothing more!, I signed up to Ancestry for £10.99 a month and it said I could search all UK records including births, marriages and deaths then when I tried to look for a marriage from 1895 it said I needed to pay £13.99 a month because it was pre 1910 or something! How many more times is it going to say I have to upgrade?, Fair play to you guys but my mental state just won't handle it so sod it.

[Bertieone]

I've only ever had full sub on Ancestry, having just checked, it appears you've taken a sub on UK Essentials which doesn't include Parish records, that's why they are asking for £13.99.

That gives you UK and Ireland records which include Parish records.


https://www.ancestry.co.uk/cs/offers/subscribe

Check, Compare memberships.

Be careful your sub doesn't automatically renew when month is up.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Ignore my hissy fit Bert I just got a bit frustrated after all the work I'd put in, in order to try and understand the process of working all this stuff out I spent hours making databases of all information relating to my dad, granddad, great granddad and great grandmother that I knew which included everything yourself and others had kindly given me, I then decided to go right back to basics and search for info using purely the data I have on my dad and granddad so I could see how you all gathered the rest of the details, (ie I ignored the fact that I already know the names of my great grandparents),anyway after a few false leads, (which I was pleased with myself to have worked out why they were false), I finally ended up with the same results as yourselves, however after deciding that the next step was to find great granddad and grandmothers marriage info I hit the no entry sign which I couldn't understand seeing as the Essentials subscription says I have access to UK census, birth, marriage and death records. I think Scotland's People will be worth throwing a pound or two at now.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Arghhhhhh I've just upgraded, found the wedding between Patrick and Grace so have the actual date but no info on fathers names!!!

[Bertieone]

The image is the search results on Scots People, 1870 marriage.

They both have the same ref number, I've come across this before and if memory serves I think it's because of some confusion in transcription?

My choice would be the top one.

[MaryA]

I'm sorry that the Parish Records of Scotland are not available on Ancestry, I always recommend that you try a free two week trial before signing up and paying your money to see if you have chosen the best subscription for your needs.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Will the records on Scots People show me the name of Patricks father though I'm wondering, to trace Patrick back further I am going to need his fathers name and/or his correct date of birth, (like Grace I have about 4 or 5 different ones at the minute), I'm also beginning to wonder if Murray was his real surname as the earliest records of him so far have him down as Menor in 1871 when he was living with Grace and her family, (the same census shows Helen Carruthers as the head of the family and has 2 of her grandsons there along with an adopted daughter), which means at some time or another he had the forenames Patrick & Peter and the surnames Murray and Menor, then there's a son of his who has been recorded as George Edward Carruthers Murray and George E Morrow, (which confuses the issue even more Bert with your 2 wedding records.........McMorrow!) Good fun this family history lark isn't it

[Bertieone]

Menor and McMorrow are likely to be transcription errors, due to the difficulty in reading the handwriting.

Registration began in Scotland in 1855, after that date marriage certificates included fathers names, previous to that date and registration, they may only reveal the bride and groom.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Yes after looking at quite a few census records etc. myself I can see where confusion could have happened with those transcribing, mind you think of the poor souls who were actually going round writing who knows how much info down per day for the census, their writing must have deteriorated quite badly near the end of the day!

[winstonevertongroovy]

I have the marriage cert but can't decipher much