Jonathan Smith born Dec 1842

[Pomme de Terre]

I was wondering if anyone was able to throw some light on a family history research issue that I have or point me in the right direction.
I am having trouble finding out where my my g g grandfather Jonathan Smith was born or where he died.
All I know about him is that:-

1 Jonathan Smith married Emma Roberts 15th June 1862 at St Nicholas Liverpool.
2 The witnesses were William & Jane Hughes)
3 On the marriage certificate his address is given as Queen St Liverpool
4 His profession is given as a carter.
5 His fathers name is given as Richard and his profession is Labourer.
6 Emma Roberts was 20 at the time of the marriage so I have assumed he is of a similar age
7 Emma Roberts address is given as Ormond St, Liverpool, however she was from Thurstaston.
8 There is a reference to a Jonathan Smith in the Liverpool Mercury 4 October 1876 were a Jonathan Smith carter, "was charged by Inspector Crafter, of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals with working a lame horse, he was fine3d 10s & costs"

After his marriage I have no idea what happens to him nor even when he dies.

9 However come the 1871 Census he is not with his wife Emma Smith (nee Roberts) she is living with her daughter in Bury for the 1871 census. However in 1881 she is living with Michael Fanning in Birkenhead.
She dies in Oldham in 1896 as Emma Fanning. I have found no marriage record for Emma to Michael Fanning therefore I have wondered was she still legally married to Jonathan.
10 I have posted on roots chat forums about Jonathan Smith web link as follows http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... msg6487338

Many useful suggestions of his possible birth date arose from these forum debates and I followed a few up however none seemed to have been correct.

11 He is not the son of Richard & Ann Oxton(Cheshire) b 1840 as this person marries a Sarah & dies in 1876 (unless he had a bigamous marriage or she has just took his name) his profession is also given as a gardener on his death certificate (which I have).
12 He is not the son of Richard & Ann Smith b 1841 Barnston(Cheshire) as this person his living with his wife Ellen in 1881 at 37 Mill St Tranmere. (again I am presuming he has not made a bigamous marriage nor has the lady just took his name.)
13 He is also not Jonathan Smith 30th October 1842 father Joseph Smith (labourer) mother Ann (nee Olivier) Stuart Street Liverpool. (I got this birth cert by accident!)
14 He is also not Jonathan Smith of Radcliffe a Blacksmith who died June 1866 aged 68
15 I have written to the GRO at Southport they do not have a death fro a Jonathan Smith between 1865 – 1867 occurring in Bury or Liverpool.(criteria born around 1840)
16 The GRO also don`t have a birth certificate for a Jonathan Smith born between 1841- 1843 with a father named Richard for Bury or Liverpool.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. There's a lot to take in and you have done an enormous amount of research.

We need to have a think about what you've posted and get back to you when we can with some possible suggestions.

[Pomme de Terre]

I will look forward to it !

[Bertieone]

An interesting conundrum, had a good go and sorry to say I can't offer a glimmer of help in finding Jonathan Smith.
Many eyes have looked at this and the only advice I can offer is put it to bed and revisit in the future when more records become available.

[MaryA]

I'm sorry to have to concur with Bertieone. You have obviously tried all the records that are so far available.

Have you got a GRO account for yourself as you are now able to search deaths with the age at death given, in the earlier indexes which are not available elsewhere and would save you having to ask the GRO to do this for you.

Smith not being the least common of names, perhaps the addition of Jonathan might help, keep trying newspapers as they become available online.

[Blue70]

One of the problems with this name is it could be shortened to John Smith, a very common name. The problem with this sort of name is proving with any certainty which one is your man in the records. I usually look to the USA when people disappear but nothing coming up there. It's more difficult when relationships are not conventional. Most people did not divorce in those days so when they separated they sometimes pretended to be single, widowed or married to the person they were living with. There were lots of bigamous marriages. Some people changed their names if they got into trouble or wanted a fresh start.


Blue

[Pomme de Terre]

I had a similar problem with the Lincoln side of my family, however for a few donations to the group some one from the Lincolnshire Family History Society did some rummaging in the Lincoln archives and found an application for parish assistance, which I presume wasn`t on line at the time, and some other information that got me back a couple of generations.
Does the L&SWL FHS do something similar?

[Blue70]

There are workhouse records on Family Search but they haven't been indexed yet so they are hard work at the moment. I think Ancestry may be adding them in the future. Liverpool workhouse links here:-

https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewt ... 43&t=15747


Blue

[Pomme de Terre]

Thanks Blue, I will have a go.

[MaryA]

Does the L&SWL FHS do something similar?

Not as such, which is why you are gaining as much help as possible from here, our Forum, which is part of our Society, any donations would be towards a membership of which, and that encourages myself or any other member to go the extra mile out of the goodness of our hearts, if it were possible.

I can say that the majority of the Parish Chest documents are held at the Lancashire Record Office, Bow Lane, Preston and their catalogue to check is on this site.
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/libraries ... rd-office/

[Pomme de Terre]

Hi Mary

Sorry only just found your response as it had gone into the junk mail instead of ordinary inbox thanks for your help.

[MaryA]

It might be a good idea to put our address in your contact list so any future replies go to your inbox.

[Pomme de Terre]

Just found a reference to a Jonathan Smith born Dec 1842 on free BMD England & Wales and in the GRO online index.
However I don`t want to pay the £6 for a pdf as there are too few details to make it a sure thing.
For instance from Jonathan`s marriage cert it said his father was called Richard and was a labourer.
I have looked at the Lancashire BMD (as I presume Liverpool came under Lancashire then) and it isn`t on that one, which is a shame as it give both the mother`s & father`s name.
I have even looked on free reg which can have a lot of details but nothing on this site for a Jonathan Smith born 1842 (or there abouts)
Any one got any ideas on how to get parental details without having to the pay the £6 until I know it could be him?

[MaryA]

I was confused as to how this post connected to the Family Search links to the Liverpool Workhouse, so I've split it from that thread and given it a post of it's own here.

[MaryA]

I suspect this is not your Jonathan.

Jonathan Smith born December Quarter 1842, mother's maiden name OLIVER.

23 October 1842 Charles William Thomas Smith married Margaret Oliver in St Peters.

[Pomme de Terre]

Hi Mary

Thanks for splitting my response off, I couldn`t figure out how to add my response onto the initial thread.
Thanks for doing the research on the Jonathan of 1842 for me, obviously I had not thought of finding out that way, I am very much a novice event though I have been dipping in & out of family history for a year or two now. I thought I had found him!
OK back to the drawing board, but at least I have saved my £6 for a more likely candidate (when I find one!).
If you think it would be of benefit to me with respect to finding Jonathan Smith I am more than happy to pay membership, but I gather that you may think that it is a lost cause especially because of the name Smith, though Jonathan is a more unusual name, it may have been shortened for Censuses which therefore doesn`t help.

[MaryA]

Well it might help us if you were able to backtrack a bit and let us know where you have found him, whether he has siblings, what his parents names were and we could take a look around to see if we were able to help. For one thing, if you were to use the GRO website for your search you could find out a number of mother's maiden names for a variety of Jonathans then check them against siblings to see if you could perhaps find a mutual mmn. Have you checked for baptisms?

If you were able to come along to one of our Help Desks in the New Year, we would be able to talk you through some of the methods we use.

[Pomme de Terre]

Hi Mary

Well this is the problem, the only thing I know about him is that he married Emma Roberts in Liverpool in 1862 and in the register he says his father is called Richard & is a labourer.
However he may be lying I don`t know that is all the information I have on him.
At the start of my query I did detail some of the information surrounding him, but unfortunately I messed up the thread with one of my responses.
The information I have on him is

1 Jonathan Smith married Emma Roberts 15th June 1862 at St Nicholas Liverpool.
2 The witnesses were William & Jane Hughes(I suspect Jane was Emmas aunty as a Jane Roberts marries an William Hughes)
3 On the marriage certificate his address is given as Queen St Liverpool
4 His profession is given as a carter.
5 His fathers name is given as Richard and his profession is Labourer.
6 Emma Roberts was 20 at the time of the marriage so I have assumed he is of a similar age
7 Emma Roberts address is given as Ormond St, Liverpool, however she was from Thurstaston.
8 There is a reference to a Jonathan Smith in the Liverpool Mercury 4 October 1876 were a Jonathan Smith carter, "was charged by Inspector Crafter, of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals with working a lame horse, he was fine3d 10s & costs"

After his marriage I have no idea what happens to him nor even when he dies.

9 However come the 1871 Census he is not with his wife Emma Smith (nee Roberts) she is living with her daughter in Bury for the 1871 census. However in 1881 she is living with Michael Fanning in Birkenhead.
She dies in Oldham in 1896 as Emma Fanning. I have found no marriage record for Emma to Michael Fanning therefore I have wondered was she still legally married to Jonathan, however I looked a long time ago and there may be new records available.

Thanks for the offer of showing me the ropes, but I couldn`t come in as I now live in the Midlands.

[MaryA]

Sorry for the lack of time - I imagine you as well as most of us are pretty rushed off our feet over the Christmas and New Year period. It was good to have that summary and I'll try to get my head around it when I have a little time, plus I've now realised that you meant to respond to a previous post so I'll try to find it and merge the two.

Meantime, perhaps one of your New Year's Resolutions could be to make enquiries perhaps at your local or main library and see if there are any Getting Started groups for family history being held there perhaps by a local family history society. I think you could really benefit from it, we all pick up hints and tips from each other and I'm sure you would enjoy it.