Missing mother on birth certificate

[JohnnyO]

Certificate duly arrived with mother's maiden name of Agnes, not Alice. Ack. I didn't put a stipulation on as wanted to see it.

I've added a thread to the main forum on Salvation House and 107 Rice Lane workhouse. Still no further on to identifying whether this is the correct relative or not

[Blue70]

Can you tell us what you know about the man born in 1916?


Blue

[Blue70]

See also this thread:-

https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewt ... =2&t=16091


Blue

[JohnnyO]

Can you tell us what you know about the man born in 1916?


Blue

Hi Blue, all I know is he was the youngest of 3 children. As mentioned in this thread and another, the first 2 children were born to different mothers, both called Alice. Father is on the 1911 census as Clifford Smith but was known as Walter. Walter's mother is unknown, hence my ordering a birth certificate. As the other 2 children were registered in West Derby, I have kept my GRO search to there, and there are 4 results, 3 with mother's maiden name and one with none, which is the one that I ordered. I suppose I would have to order the other three to see if the father was shown as Clifford (I already have the certificates for the other 2 siblings, both with Clifford Smith as the father).

As far as the family have said, no one knew much about Walter, apart from marrying a woman called Patricia and having 2 children, one called Clifford Smith and one an unknown female.

[JohnnyO]

I think that I have a result! I was still looking for Clifford Smith and decided to review the 1939 register and expand my search.

Lo and behold, Clifford Smith, born 1871 living in Llandudno with Walter W Smith! There are also 2 other closed entries, presumably Walter's 2 children.

My mother in law always talked about being evacuated to Llandudno during WW11, presumably staying with her uncle and granddad.

GRO has a birth record for Walter William Smith in 1912, with a mother's maiden name. Time to order a PDF. That is Clifford Smith's 3rd child by 3 different mothers

[MaryA]

Great success!! onwards and upwards.

[Alison C]

Given that Alice Maud was still with Clifford in the 1920 electoral roll she must have stayed with him even after Walter W was born! Unless Walter W's mother was another Alice Maud!!

There is the following possible marriage on FreeBMD for Walter W:
Marriages Mar 1937
Walter W Smith and Eleanor P Jones, West Derby, Liverpool N., 8b, 740

Maybe the "P" in Eleanor's name stands for Patricia?
No obvious birth for Clifford Smith with mother's mn Jones though, so maybe the wrong marriage.

[Bertieone]

I think that I have a result! I was still looking for Clifford Smith and decided to review the 1939 register and expand my search.
Lo and behold, Clifford Smith, born 1871 living in Llandudno with Walter W Smith! There are also 2 other closed entries, presumably Walter's 2 children.

I think the birth date could be, 9 Jan, 77?

[JohnnyO]

Given that Alice Maud was still with Clifford in the 1920 electoral roll she must have stayed with him even after Walter W was born! Unless Walter W's mother was another Alice Maud!!

There is the following possible marriage on FreeBMD for Walter W:
Marriages Mar 1937
Walter W Smith and Eleanor P Jones, West Derby, Liverpool N., 8b, 740

Maybe the "P" in Eleanor's name stands for Patricia?
No obvious birth for Clifford Smith with mother's mn Jones though, so maybe the wrong marriage.

Thanks Alison. I saw that entry and wondered the same myself. I spoke to my mother in law yesterday, as she remembers being evacuated to his cottage during the war, half way up the Great Orme. At the time though, it was Clifford Smith and yet another lady friend staying there! MIL remembers Walter and Patricia(?) had 2 children, she thinks one called Clifford. There is a Clifford I Smith born in Conwy in 1938, mother's maiden name Parry Jones. Maybe it was Eleanor Parry Jones?

It is confusing that Clifford is with Alice Maud in 1920, as the birth GRO entry for Walter has mother's maiden name as Barnes. Saying that, both the mothers of his first 2 children were called Alice Maud (different surnames as I have copy certificates). Maybe he was going for a hat trick of Alice Mauds!

[JohnnyO]

I think that I have a result! I was still looking for Clifford Smith and decided to review the 1939 register and expand my search.
Lo and behold, Clifford Smith, born 1871 living in Llandudno with Walter W Smith! There are also 2 other closed entries, presumably Walter's 2 children.

I think the birth date could be, 9 Jan, 77?

Hi Bert, thanks for the reply and image. It is not a very clear copy unfortunately, and not sure why there is a 71 and 77, and also the letters above. The 'W' obviously signifies widowed, but still no trace of a wife. The death certificate for Clifford in July 1951 gave his age as 80, which would fit with both 71 in the 1939 register and on the 1911 census. I'm guessing his son Walter was born in 1912 from my research and that poor image, and the 2 children are the closed entries.

[Bertieone]

John,

It appears any additions are above the birth date and perhaps discovering what 71 WF/A? or WP/A? could be may help.

I thought Clifford Smith was born/registered, 1869, parents, Thomas Smith, Clara Amelia Reeves, or is that now not thought to be correct?

[JohnnyO]

John,

It appears any additions are above the birth date and perhaps discovering what 71 WF/A? or WP/A? could be may help.

I thought Clifford Smith was born/registered, 1869, parents, Thomas Smith, Clara Amelia Reeves, or is that now not thought to be correct?

Hi Bert, looking at other entries, it could be that someone has amended the record from 77 to 71 and they are their initials, possibly when the records were used by the NHS or whoever else amended them.

I still have his parents as above, but still trying to prove if that is the case.

[Bertieone]

If it is an amended birth year I wonder why a line hasn't been put through the 77, perhaps not the procedure.

Scotchmer may come to the rescue, hopefully.

[MaryA]

If it is an amended birth year I wonder why a line hasn't been put through the 77, perhaps not the procedure.

Scotchmer may come to the rescue, hopefully.

Tuesdays are busy days with the Help Desk at the library but message has been left for her to check this post, she will when she is able

[JohnnyO]

If it is an amended birth year I wonder why a line hasn't been put through the 77, perhaps not the procedure.

Scotchmer may come to the rescue, hopefully.

Good point Bert. GRO has nothing for a Clifford Smith b 1877 in Birmingham or surroundings (based of family folklore and 1911 census). Only one is the 1869 Clifford Walter Smith in Birmingham to mother Reeves.

[Alison C]

There is a Clifford I Smith born in Conwy in 1938, mother's maiden name Parry Jones. Maybe it was Eleanor Parry Jones?

I seem to recall on a previous thread about Clifford Smith that a relative had said that Walter Smith married a Nellie Parry? If so, then Eleanor Parry Jones would fit in nicely.

As Clifford I Smith was born not long before the 1939 Register then perhaps the 2 hidden entries are Eleanor and Clifford I?

[JohnnyO]

There is a Clifford I Smith born in Conwy in 1938, mother's maiden name Parry Jones. Maybe it was Eleanor Parry Jones?

I seem to recall on a previous thread about Clifford Smith that a relative had said that Walter Smith married a Nellie Parry? If so, then Eleanor Parry Jones would fit in nicely.

As Clifford I Smith was born not long before the 1939 Register then perhaps the 2 hidden entries are Eleanor and Clifford I?

Hi Alison, I think I have probably caused lots of confusion in this thread. Too many Smiths! It was the elusive Clifford Smith who was (not) married to Alice Maud Parry, even though 1911 census says married 5 complete years, I can find no trace of a marriage. Nellie Parry is on the 1911 census as mother in law. If Bert's comments and records are correct, then he was Clifford Walter Smith, which possibly fits with young Walter.

It would be his son, Walter William who possibly married Eleanor Parry Jones. Whether there is a link to Alice Maud Parry I don't know. I reckon that the 2 closed entries would be Clifford I and either Eleanor or their other child, apparently a daughter, name unknown. If Clifford I was born in 1938 and they married in 1937, then the second child may not be on the 1939 record anyway.

[Bertieone]

Previously,

https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewt ... =2&t=15569

[JohnnyO]

Previously,

https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewt ... =2&t=15569

Hi Bert, I have just revisited that thread, and on re reading it, am going to add something there, as things have now become a little clearer in parts!

Thanks for reminding me, it was useful

[MaryA]

Message from Scotchmer re the writing above the line on the 1939 Register. It says NHA which just means that the change of date was registered with the authorities.