Cross Family

[yellowbus]

Hi there and thanks for the opportunity to use your forum.

I am researching from New Zealand and have a Cross family on my mothers, fathers side.
I am confident that I have the family correct back to the birth of a Robert Cross at Prescott in 1821. His father was John. This is the consistent information from his marriage and census info but I cannot find a birth record that accurately match these facts.

John married Betsy Watkin at St Nicholas Church, Liverpool 2 January 1845. In all other documents Betsy is called Elizabeth. They had a number of children including my Great Grandfather Robert Cross in 4 August 1858 ( confirmed by certificate).

in 1851 they are at Mersey View Street, Toxteth park ( 2188/188/15)
IN 1862 6 Mersey View Road
1871 Grafton Road 6/23 court
1881 same ( 3644/76/20)

Robert Cross senior dies April 1881.

Elizabeth Cross appears with her daughter and family in 1891 at Roydon Street, Toxteth park. (2932/19/32)

Robert Cross junior leaves for Brisbane soon after with Sarah Spring, although I have been unable to confirm their precise departure date and ship.

My research problem is that I cannot with any accuracy pin point the family of John Cross who had a son named Robert in 1821 in Prescott. There are several "near misses" . Could it be the John Cross who married Barbary Pendleton on 1819 at Walton the Hill? If so why are there no records for Barbary? Or birth records from Robert?

I am hopeful that a kind person with more local knowledge can give me some assurance about this. Many thanks. Carolyn Adams

[alex69]

What was the occupation of Robert's father John Cross as shown on the Marriage Certificate?

Have you found John on the Censuses? This will possibly help with Occupation and place of birth.

Alex

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

If Robert came from Prescot it's unlikely to be the family from Walton on the Hill although not impossible. I don't know what your "near misses" are but possibly you have been searching in the Liverpool area, whereas I think you may need to widen your search area, if using Ancestry then searching Lancashire instead.

Civil Registration only began in 1837 in England and Wales so anything before that date relies on Parish Records ie it would be a baptism for Robert, if you are a little unused to UK records you may find this post useful https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewt ... =25&t=6937

We also have to remember that not all records are available online.

Having said all that I hope we may be able to offer some clues.

[Bertieone]

John married Betsy Watkin at St Nicholas Church, Liverpool 2 January 1845. In all other documents Betsy is called Elizabeth. They had a number of children including my Great Grandfather Robert Cross in 4 August 1858 ( confirmed by certificate).

Typo?
Robert Cross married Betsy

[yellowbus]

yes you are quite right. My mistake and I apologize. yes Robert married Betsy and the census references above apply to Robert and Betsy. Sorry to waste peoples time.

[yellowbus]

Thanks Mary Ann. I am very familiar with UK records but this one has me stumped.

Robert's father John is recorded as a labourer on Roberts marriage certificate.

[alex69]

John Cross married to Barbary...1851 Census are at 46 Park Street Liverpool. He is born West Derby while listed children aged 9-20 are all born Toxteth Park.

Barbary is born Ecclestone. I presume Eccleston near St Helens, not far from Prescot.

[MaryA]

Barbary is born Ecclestone. I presume Eccleston near St Helens, not far from Prescot.

That sounds quite promising so far as area is concerned.

[yellowbus]

thanks people- Its very kind of you all to assist.

I agree that John and Barbary Cross are the possible parents but have been only able to infer this from the 1841 census where John and Barbary are in Liverpool and had 8 children Robert Cross in 1821, James in 1826, Mary in 1826, John in 1830, Henry in 1843, William in 1836 and they had just had Ann in 1841.

All of the children were born in "Lancashire" and in 1841 they were at Leverock Bank, Liverpool. John was a labourer and highly likely that Robert now aged 20 was too.

what I cant find is an actual baptism for John in circa 1821 at West Derby. To me this seems necessary for proof that this is in fact my family.

[alex69]

Just a couple of points.

Firstly remember that ages in 1841 for those over 15 ears of age are rounded down. So James and Mary shown as 1826 by you (presumably as 15 on 1841 census) could be aged 15-19.

There are baptisms at St Peters priory for James 16 Feb 1823 (born 11th Feb) and 16 Jan 1825 (born 11th Jan) for Mary both children of John & Barbara Cross.

These are Catholic baptisms.

Alex

[MaryA]

Something that might be useful could be Wills. For those prior to 1858 that are not on the later Probate Lists, try this site https://user.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm

You will find some Cross entries in both Prescot and Liverpool for the early 1800's. I would always encourage people to look at Wills that are in the area but not necessarily for the names you are expecting since a relative may mention names well worth taking note of. If you don't come across the copies of Wills online, and I suspect you won't, then Lancashire Record Office, Bow Lane, Preston will have copies of them and although they charge they are willing to take copies and email them to you.

[Blue70]

You can save money by accessing Lancashire wills free on Family Search. Registration is free and by signing in you can view many free image collections. Links here for Lancashire wills:-

https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewt ... 43&t=15748


You can see index details for Cross wills here:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1061472

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1061472



Blue

[yellowbus]

Thank you again. All helpful suggestions. I have had a go at finding the wills, I have already purchased a number but can tell they are not ancestors.

I found the ones you refer to in the indexes but have spent fruitless hours actually trying to find them. The Most promising is Cross William Eccleston in Prescott 26 May 1817 but I just cant find it.

I have had great success on the NE database which allows you to search by name and it takes you straight to the actual documents but this is a lot harder.

I have another inquiry about Prescot BDMs. On Family Search there are a few Cross names from 1500-1650, none from 1650-1750 and then many from 1800.Does this suggest something about the records not being online? Or that there were in fact noone by that name in the area during these dats?

Thanks Again. Youa re all wonderful being willing to help like this.

[Bertieone]

Have you tried here?

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/cgi-bin/mkind ... community=

[MaryA]

Also if you are looking at Ancestry or Familysearch then instead of just checking the database, open near the date you are looking for and scroll, they may just not have been indexed.

[Blue70]

William Cross, 26 May 1817, link below, looks like administration only no will. The spine is ripped on this first image so it makes it more difficult to find it:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=126866


Blue

[yellowbus]

Thank you Blue 70 that's perfect. The will did follow but I do not think he is mine either.

Mary Ann yes I did look around the date but this was hard to spot. Do have a look at the NE database. I don't know how they got it funded but it makes very complex work on the wills possible where you can observe inheritance patterns, age at death, fates of families over time etc. It is so easy to use.

Thank you all again for your help.

[yellowbus]

Thanks Bertieone

I thought all my Christmas's had come at once with the online parish registers but alas, I am now convinced that there was no Robert Cross, Born Prescot 1817-1823, as suggested by the Census and with a father John. I have also assumed, based on the marriage certificate that Robert was the son of John Cross who married Barbary Pendelton at St James Toxteth Park, Liverpool on 23 August 1819 where John is described as a farmer of this parish.

Could you be a farmer in Toxteth at that time? And why is he a farmer at this own marriage but a labourer at his sons marriage? If they were already in Liverpool ( and I know great migrations into Liverpool occurred at this time) why was their son supposedly born in Prescot? There is no alternative born in Liverpool either.

I have used the parish Registers to search the whole of Lancashire and Family Search over the its database but to no avail. I considered the possibility that Robert was born to Barbary before the marriage but cant find that either.

So thanks again for your wonderful help but for now this remains a classic brick wall.

[Bertieone]

I think it depends on how we define (Farmer).Today we see a Farmer as having many acres, crops, cattle, etc.

I believe John Cross could also have had or managed a small piece of land which could have qualified him to be recorded as a Farmer.

Years later at his sons marriage, he has been recorded as what his occupation was at the time or what his son has remembered his occupation to be.

Apart from Robert, have any other children's baptisms been found?

[yellowbus]

Alex 69 was kind enough to find 2 children of John and Barbary Cross baptised at St peters Priory James in 1823, and Mary in 1825.

I spent the day today in our excellent national Library where there is free access to ancestry, Findmypast and the genealogist, determined to not leave any stone unturned. I found in addition baptisms of John in 1830 and Henry at the same place in 1831. William interestingly is baptised at age 22 in 1858 at St Michaels, Liverpool.

Younger children Susannah and Ann had not been baptised.

But still no Robert Cross from around 1818 to 1821 at any age. Nor his wife Barbary Pendelton. These 2 appear for the first time at their wedding in 1819. There are a bunch of Pendeltons around Walton-on -the hill and another using St Mary the Virgin in West Derby in the early 19th century but no Barbary.

I guess the explanations are either that they were not baptised or in Robert's case I guess he could have been born prior to the marriage but there are no suitable candidates for that either. He could have been orphaned and renamed by the Cross family. Immigration from Ireland or Wales also seem possible.

So for now all I can do is admit that I have a brick wall on both of these lines

Thanks again for all your help.