Ellen Sword/Ellen Gibson

[Gwebb1]

Happy Christmas everyone and a happy New Year when it arrives!

Wondering if anyone can help me chip away on this 'brick wall'.

Ellen Sword (widow) married John Gibson at St Nicholas on 29th April 1805. I have the baptism records for 5 of their children born between 1806 and 1817 and several of these give the mother's name as being 'formerly Sword'.

I have a baptism record for an Andrew Sword for 27th Dec 1798 at St Nicholas and his parents are named as Thomas Sword (mariner) and Ellen Sword, formerly Anderson. The record shows Andrew to be their 2nd child and states they were married in Leeds.
I am wondering if this is the same Ellen who married John Gibson in 1805 but I can find no death for Thomas which would either rule this idea in or out - can anyone see something I'm not?

Many thanks in advance.
Glen

[MaryA]

I think that is a difficult one as obviously at that date there is no death registration so it's either a burial or Will that is needed, not an easy task as he may have died at sea.

Was Ellen married by Licence and could that give any clue?

Have you tried the newspapers? and also the links, especially to the Old Mersey Times given in this post https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ ... =14&t=5739 it might be a long job checking all the pages on the various sites, but perseverance paid off for me once and I had a successful result for one of my mysteries.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Mary, and Happy New Year for tomorrow!
I will follow-up the leads you gave me - I'm finding it hard now that most of my research is back to the 1700s as I feel I do not always have much supporting evidence to back-up my research findings. John Gibson and the widowed Ellen Swords were married by Banns so no further leads there I am afraid.

There are a couple of things I noticed as I stared at the various records I have found (as you do when you don't know what to do next!) which I would welcome people's opinions on:

1) Andrew Sword (bpt. 1798) married Maria Taylor at St John's, Old Haymarket 14 Jan 1838 but his father's name is given as 'Andrew Sword' whereas the baptism record says his father is Thomas. The profession of both is given as 'mariner' - just an admin error or am I mixing up 2 families?

2) Andrew's baptism record says his parents were married in Leeds - I had assumed Yorkshire (although I couldn't find any trace of a marriage between a Thomas Sword and Ellen Anderson in Yorkshire) but then I started wondering if it referred to Leeds Street Chapel in Liverpool as I have a baptism record for one of Ellen's children from her 2nd marriage (Margaret Gibson bpt 1809) saying the child was baptised in Leeds Street Chapel. What do people think and can anyone tell me more about Leeds Street Chapel? Would there be any additional records that are not online yet?

Looking forward to hearing people's comments.

Glen

[Bertieone]

Glen,

I lean towards, Leeds, Yorkshire, other places recorded away from Liverpool suggest not the Chapel.

Plymouth, Wigan, Waterford, West Kirby, Neston.

[MaryA]

I have known an area be known by the name of a street and wonder if Leeds might have been the same, but having checked the RO Catalogue, wonder if this is the chapel in question, so would be discounted by the dates.
280 THO
Leeds Street Wesleyan Methodist Chapel: Opened 1800. Demolished 1838 and rebuilt in Great Homer Street. Reopened 1839.

[Gwebb1]

Thank you, Mary and Bertie, back to Yorkshire records then!

I still need to make the link between the widow on the 1805 marriage record and the Ellen Swords who was the mother of Andrew and possibly from Leeds. I will start trawling through the leads you gave me, Mary, but I am over in Liverpool at the end of January and was wondering if there are any street directories in the library that might be useful for the late 1790s/early 1800s - what do you think?

Also, anyone got any views on the fact that Andrew Sword's birth records in 1798 give his father as 'Thomas, a mariner' while his marriage records in 1838 give his father as 'Andrew, mariner'?

Regards,
Glen

[Bertieone]

The Andrew Sword who married Maria Taylor died, March Qtr, 1845, Liverpool, aged 45.
If we can find his burial, with luck he may be buried with family members, Parents, Siblings.

Maria Sword/Taylor married John McCulloch, Liverpool 1849, Registrar Attended.

The 1861 census, John McCulloch, Maria, family.
Class: RG 9; Piece: 2684; Folio: 36; Page: 16;
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/s ... h=23985324
Maria born, Knutsford, Cheshire, should be able to check father was Thomas and not a mix up filling in the marriage lines.

Son, Thomas Taylor Sword, died, 1872, Antigua & Barbuda

[Katie]

Hi Glen

Directories for Liverpool go from 1766 upwards. Also you could try this site

https://bmdregisters.co.uk/search/advan ... =&a=Search

[Blue70]

Thank you, Mary and Bertie, back to Yorkshire records then!

I still need to make the link between the widow on the 1805 marriage record and the Ellen Swords who was the mother of Andrew and possibly from Leeds. I will start trawling through the leads you gave me, Mary, but I am over in Liverpool at the end of January and was wondering if there are any street directories in the library that might be useful for the late 1790s/early 1800s - what do you think?

Also, anyone got any views on the fact that Andrew Sword's birth records in 1798 give his father as 'Thomas, a mariner' while his marriage records in 1838 give his father as 'Andrew, mariner'?

Regards,
Glen

Family Search has online images of Liverpool street directories register/sign in to view. See the links here:-

https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ ... 43&t=15734


Blue

[Bertieone]

[Gwebb1]

Thanks for the leads, everyone.

Bert, I checked out Maria's birth in Knutsford and her father was definitely Thomas Taylor. However, looking at the record of her marriage to Andrew Sword, his address is given as St Andrew Street i.e. he's called Andrew, his address is Andrew and his father's name is given as Andrew - could that be where the error occurred?!

Interesting that your cutting, Bert, refers to Thomas Taylor being from Nottingham - seems a long way from Knutsford.
Another interesting point is that the witnesses at the Sword/Taylor wedding were John and Ann McCulloch.

What concerns me is that the father's name is given as 'Andrew' on several documents related to the marriage - could an error have been copied from one document to another or would the records have been completed independently of each other?

I think I'll start going through the street directories next and see if I can find a Thomas Sword who disappears between 1797 and 1805 - still looking for the evidence that all the records I have refer to the same Ellen (I know I can rule out the Ellen Sword who died in Liverpool 1844 as that was a 1 year old baby - re-vamped GRO proving to be really useful again).

Final question re: street directories - are they like the census and only record the head of the household if he happened to be there when it was taken? I'm just thinking of Thomas Sword being away from home because he was a mariner.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I have the right family as I do fancy following a trail to Antigua - could be a story there for the magazine!

Glen

[Gwebb1]

Blue - thanks for the reminder about the street directories on familysearch. It is a really useful you have provided. However, I am looking particularly for the records for 1797 to 1806 and I don't seem to be able to find them. Are they there?

To be honest, I have not used directories as early as this before and I'm not sure how useful they will be - are they likely to include references to ordinary sawyers and mariners?

Glen

[Blue70]

These are the links available for around about that time I suspect that the dates are the same for the Record Office as these images will originate from there:-

Gore’s 1796

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... &cat=55905


Gore's 1800

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Schofield 1800

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore's 1803

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Woodward's 1804

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore's 1805

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore's 1807

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709



Blue

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Blue - that’s me sorted for tomorrow and I hope I am more successful than Everton were the other day!

G

[Blue70]

Some directories are more selective in the professions they list others may be more inclusive. Those listed are usually heads of households so a lot of people are excluded. The presence in one directory and the absence in the next is not necessarily due to death or a move it's always best to look at a number of directories just in case the person reappears. The older directories are much shorter than the later ones so it's easier to look through them and identify any listings. As for Everton thankfully we've made it into the top half of the table but we could still be drawn back into a relegation battle if we play like we did the other night.


Blue

[Bertieone]

What concerns me is that the father's name is given as 'Andrew' on several documents related to the marriage - could an error have been copied from one document to another or would the records have been completed independently of each other?
Glen

If a mistake has been made, it happened on the day. Further documentation follows the original document and mistake if any, it's unlikely you will find a record that differs.

[MaryA]

As Katie said above,

Hi Glen

Directories for Liverpool go from 1766 upwards. Also you could try this site

https://bmdregisters.co.uk/search/advan ... =&a=Search

but not everything is online. He may still be listed even if away from home, there are mariners in the directories. Lucky you will be visiting the library soon.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks for all your help, folks, but I'm still not having much luck. Very few Gibsons and Swords in the Street Directories and none seem to be the ones I am looking for!

My main targets are to:
1) find the death of Ellen Gibson (I have checked marriages and don't think there was a re-marriage after 1817) - last address I have for her is London Road in 1817 (child's baptism record). I think she was first married about 1798 so I am guessing a d.o.b. around 1777 might be feasible.
2) find the death of John Gibson - last known address as above. I have a possible record in 1834, age 55 and this would give a d.o.b. of 1779 which could be about right but the record doesn't give his profession and the address is Gordon Street which seems quite a way for London Road area.
3) any reference at all to Thomas Sword apart from his son's baptism! From what Bert says, I guess his name was Thomas and not Andrew like his son.

I will start looking through the cemetery records but any advice on which are the most likely would be appreciated.
Also, if I come to the RO, what additional records might be useful to me that are not on-line?

Thanks again for your help.
G.

[MaryA]

Don't know if I've already checked these off your list but just noting that I've looked at Gibsons and there are no Swords and no relevant Gibsons.

Also checked the newspapers available via Lancashire Library services (which I think Bert has done already) and appear to be no mention of a Thomas Sword, the only entry for deaths is what Bert found, no mention of where the funeral was.

Certainly at the Record Office there will be Burial Records for the churches as I don't believe the cemeteries would be opened, the nearest I thought of was Necropolis which did't open until 1825, so I think you would need to check the likes of St Peter's early registers, maybe even St Mary, Walton on the Hill or whichever other churches were open at that early date.

[Gwebb1]

I think a starting point when I visit the RO is to look at burial records for St Nicholas's (most of the Gibson children were baptised here); St Peter's (Andrew Sword's children were baptised here)and perhaps St Michael's (the only feasible death record I have for John Gibson is for a 55 year old from Gordon Street buried thereon 30th Nov 1834).

I could also follow-up the tip about finding where Andrew Sword was buried and see if there is a family grave.

Intriguing that there are so few references to the Sword family - I cannot even find Andrew on the 1841 census.
I followed up the death of Thomas Taylor Sword in Antigua and Find a Grave has a headstone showing he was buried with his 5 month old daughter, who died in 1872 a couple of months after her father.
I then followed up a Sword link on the 1881 census: An Alicia Sword, a widowed school teacher from Liverpool, living in Foxhill Road with her 5 children, 4 of whom were born in the West Indies. I thought I might have found Thomas Taylor's widow but I couldn't find a suitable marriage record!

Bert, where are the newspaper cuttings from and was the one referring to Andrew Sword his obituary?

G.