63 Gregson Street, Everton, in 1851

[retiringtype]

Just comparing the signatures from the Thomas Hunter marriage in 1852 and William Woods in 1853:





I'm not entirely convinced that this is the same person

[ChrisAnson]

Thanks to all those who have been searching!
The marriage of William Woods (flour dealer) to Mary Hunter in 1828 leads on to a cluster of records that (I think) must refer to the same young family:
John Woods, son of William (flour dealer) and Mary Woods of Leigh St, bapt 15/1/1829 (St Nicholas)
William Woods, son of William (book keeper) and Mary Woods of Leigh St, bapt 23/3/1830 (St Nicholas)
William Woods of Leigh St, bur 26 Oct 1830 (leaving a young widow and two screaming babies).

I think this William baptised in 1830 may be "my" William. I have also had my doubts concerning the signatures of William Woods on his marriage certificate, and that of the William Woods who was the witness at the wedding of Thomas Bentham Hunter, who must have been the William Woods, tinplate worker, living with his cousin Thomas Hunter and his uncle and aunt John and Agnes Hunter at 17 Codrington Street.
There is also "family rumour" (and also a website I have currently lost...) that William had been a pupil teacher at the recently opened Liverpool Collegiate, and then worked there as a schoolmaster after qualifying. He then taught at St Peter's National School (which was largely staffed by the family of his wife Annie Morris), before he and Annie set up their own private school (the "Everton Road Academy", which later moved to Marlborough Road to become the "Marlborough Collegiate School"). The Morris tree is remarkable for its number of teachers!
It looks as if teacher training in Liverpool was reasonably well set up in the 1850s, with senior pupils who wanted to become teachers being appointed "pupil teachers", who taught the juniors while still in their "sixth form", before becoming probationary teachers, and then fully-fledged schoolmasters and mistresses.
I would still like to see the 1851 census record for 63 Gregson Street, though. In the 1851 census, Annie Morris (schoolmistress) was living with other Morrises at 49 Mill Road, so not at Gregson Road. I have this suspicion that William might have been living as a lodger at 63 Gregson Street, but even if it turns out he wasn't, this would still be a useful piece of data! So if someone could find this census entry - please...

Going back to Leigh Street, it seems that the widowed Mary Woods was still living there in 1841, 1851 and 1861 with a son from a previous marriage, Mark Pritchard (my new discovery today!). This would rule out Mary being born Mary Hunter, the sister of John Hunter of Codrington Street. It is beginning to look as if this set of Woods records related to the Hunters might look right, but be based on an unfortunate concidence somewhere along the line.

Many thanks for all your help so far,
Chris

[ChrisAnson]

Particular thanks to bertieone for the two newspaper cuttings (was the one about the marriage also from the Mercury?).
The 1851 census has Annie's mother Elizabeth Morris at 49 Mill Road, with children Charles, Annie (schoolmistess), Elizabeth (pupil teacher) and Mary, plus James Nisbet the Scottish singing teacher. Whereas by 1861 she is at 42 Sackville Street as housekeeper for recently-married daughter Elizabeth (now a teacher at the school next door) and son-in-law Joseph Sharp, with William and Annie living at St Peter's School at number 44 next door. Problems come when people move twice between censuses! At least the "Gregson Street mystery" is at least partly solved, and I suspect the 1851 census record for number 63 may not tell us anything other than Elizabeth Morris's predecessor in that house - although it would be nice to find William the schoolmaster living there!
The first cutting also tells me what happened to Elizabeth's eldest son John. As a stonemason he had moved to North Wales, married Elizabeth Davies (a stonemason's daughter) in Wrexham in 1848, had a daughter Elizabeth in 1849 (Elizabeth Davies, b. 1849 in Wrexham, was living with William and Annie in the 1871 census listed as niece and schoolmisress), was back in Liverpool for the 1851 census with wife and child back in Wrexham, and then vanished. At least I now know what happened to him - even if not pleasant....
As I said earlier, I have never seen anything like the Morris family for the concentration of teachers! William and Annie's offspring continued the tradition as well. Their eldest Arthur was an asistant schoolmaster in 1871 (I think he also trained at the Liverpool Collegiate) before switching to the ordained minisry, their daughters Elizabeth and Annie were both schoolmistresses at William's school, and daughter Constance married a school inspector!
I still have work to do on William's parents, though. Since the Mary Hunter who married William Woods the flour dealer/bookkeeper of Leigh Street is later still living there but with a son (Mark Pritchard) from a previous marriage (possibly to a Owen Prichard), Hunter was not her maiden name, so she can not have been the brother of the John Hunter of Codrington Street and the mother of the tinplate worker. This would leave her free to be the mother of William Woods the schoolmaster, but I am still a way off nailing that, though. However, since her later census records list her as born in Kendal, there may yet be a connection to John Hunter and his family, who also originated from that part of the world. This could get complicated. So if anyone comes up with some further useful gems of info concerning the Woods family, I would be only too pleased to have them.

Best wishes for 2017 from a snowy SW Germany,
Chris

[retiringtype]

I noticed that there was another William Woods marriage in Liverpool in September 1853 - a mariner of that name, address Osmond Street, married Mary Ann Carr at St Nicholas. His father was also a William Woods, book keeper !

[retiringtype]

Going back to Leigh Street, it seems that the widowed Mary Woods was still living there in 1841, 1851 and 1861 with a son from a previous marriage, Mark Pritchard

Those two are In Scotland Road in the 1841 census with another child Robert Pritchard, 15, an apprentice cabinet maker. So they must have moved to Leigh Street between 1841 and 1851.

There's an 1826 marriage at St Nicholas: widow Mary Pritchard marries James Woods, a mariner.

I would say that this is not the Mary Woods that you are interested in.

[Bertieone]

Hi Chris,

Yes, the marriage newspaper cutting was from the Liverpool Mercury, Sept 30, 1853.

On the signatures RT posted, I'm not convinced they are the same person. With other evidence found I think the Hunter connection can go on the back burner.

Further back RT posted, possible name change, William Walmsley, Bluecoat school.

Probably just a coincidence, next door to the Morris family, Mill Rd, 1851, there's a William Walmsley aged 40, wife Sarah 30, and 2 children, 3 & 2. Perhaps worth looking at, William at 40 would be old enough to perhaps be the father of William from a previous relationship.

Clutching at straws spring to mind, but we have come across name changes after family disputes before.

[ChrisAnson]

So beware the "Come on now, what are the chances of there being more than one William Woods, bookkeeper, with children getting married in Liverpool in the early 1850s" fallacy. Very high, it would seem. Two would be bad enough, but it now looks like there were three of them!
Correct me if I am wrong, but the impression I get of 19th century Liverpool is that there is less "parish loyalty" than in an older city like London, presumably because many of the Liverpool parishes were themselves relatively new constructs. This, and the size of the place, makes family history research much more of a challenge than e.g. in the East End of London, where some of my other ancestors were baptised, married and buried in the same church for generation after generation...

[ChrisAnson]

And also beware the "Mary Woods, widow, living at Leigh Street in 1851 and 1861, must be the same as the Mary Woods left widowed there in 1830" fallacy. My mistake there - thanks for pointing that one out!

[MaryA]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the impression I get of 19th century Liverpool is that there is less "parish loyalty" than in an older city like London, presumably because many of the Liverpool parishes were themselves relatively new constructs.

I see you have that healthy scepticism that we all have in our research
I suspect Liverpool has nearly as many parishes as London at various times, and often the loyalty comes with prestige - the number of marriages and baptisms that took place at St Peters just because it was the pro Cathedral is beyond count.

You may find this page interesting as it lists most of the churches and where the records might be held, although Ancestry does hold a huge amount of the databases for Liverpool, we are very lucky that way if we are unable to research first hand at the Record Office http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Liverpool

[ChrisAnson]

There's a tree on Ancestry that picks the tinplate worker as the schoolmaster

http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/69134 ... 6972/facts

@RT: not any more it doesn't!
I had the Hunters of Codlington Street still in the tree from an earlier session with William Woods, had grown uneasy about them, but left them in as "possibles, just in case" (rather than the painful process of deleting them all, and making sure that all their associated recordshad really gone as well).
But the evidence we now have (particularly the two signatures: would you accept a cheque with one of the signatures, backed by a bank card with the other signature?!) means they have all now been deleted from the tree.

There's a potentially interesting 1841 census record from St Martin's parish, district 30 (no street name as far as I can see) with John Woods (15 apprentice painter) and brother William (12 shop boy) living with "Nicorbly" Shanon (30, Irish engine fitter) and wife Ellen. These two have become Nicholas and Ellen Shannon in 1851, living in a Court at Kew(?) Street, with no sign of the Woods boys. Ellen was nee Bridge according to the baptism record for their youngest son James in 1843. Probably one to "keep on file", though. Only found it by searching for brother John Woods - ancestry didn't pick up on the "Wm."!

Chris

[MaryA]

potentially interesting 1841 census record from St Martin's parish, district 30 (no street name as far as I can see)

Just to keep "on file" with the other details
Reference is HO107; Piece: 564; Book: 15; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 30; Folio: 35; Page: 15
and the address is Limekiln Lane.

The two Woods boys are living in the same dwelling but not of the Shanon household - see the / in front of their name separating them from the others.