RICHARD DALZELL

[Bertieone]

Hi Lincsmo,

do you know when father John Dalzell died, it may help with the 1871 census (Ellen) whether it comes in to play or dismiss it.

[MaryA]

I have all that information.

Please make sure that you give all information that you have, especially censuses, ages at marriage etc. as it all helps others see the full picture.

[lincsmo]

Hi Bert no I don't know when John Dalzell died, that's the thing Richard Dalzell just seemed to appear in 1881 when he's married

Maureen

[MaryA]

Am I missing something? has nobody given the details from the 1881 census?

This seems to be the one that Lincsmo is referring to - please confirm this is the case and also your evidence to support it is your family - perhaps a baptism of one of the children at this address?
2 in 11 Court Blenheim Street, St Martin, Liverpool
All born Liverpool
Richard Dogill (sic) Head M 25 Carter
May Wife M 23
John Thomas son Unm 3
Mary daur Unm 1
RG11; Piece: 3598; Folio: 136

Perhaps coincidentally close by are living a Joseph and Sarah Gibson with children Sarah and Joseph.

[Bertieone]

Birth and death of their child
Dalzell Ellen Liverpool 8b 18 March Qtr 1882
Death Dec Qtr, 1882 Liverpool 8b 49

[Bertieone]

Catholic Baptism,

Birth Date, Dec 1881
Baptism Dec 1881
Ricardi Dalzell
Maria Ball
St Sylvester

Godmother, Catherine Ball

Details as above,
Mary, Birth 29, Feb, 1880
Baptism, 27, Feb, 1880
Godmother, Sarah Ann Ball

[erika]

I'm a little confused here too.

Can you confirm which information we have given you is correct and what isn't.
I also found a 1891 census and a burial, are they correct?

[Bertieone]

I'd be very surprised if the 81, 91 and workhouse death were wrong,
I've tried every variation of the name to try and find Richard prior to his marriage without success.
Losing the will to live now

[dickiesam]

I'd be very surprised if the 81, 91 and workhouse death were wrong,
I've tried every variation of the name to try and find Richard prior to his marriage without success.
Losing the will to live now

Re variations... you can't get more varied than *a*l and finally *l... which I finished up with. The possibility is that Richard changed his name from Robert... And ours is not to reason why!

[MaryA]

Don't forget that enumerators/those who completed the forms, could well have given the name in a manner we don't necessarily accept nowadays - ie Dalzell as it is spelt or Dee'ell or even other variations we might not even think of. Of course can't find a *z* that fits.

[lincsmo]

Hi All
The 1881 census
Richard Dalzell (Dogill)
May (Mary)
John Thomas 3yrs is my grandfather
Mary 1 year
address 2 11 CT Blenhein they live at the same address as Mary father Thomas Ball
RG11; Piece: 3598; Folio: 136 (amended to include reference, as given above MA)

1891 All born Liverpool
Richard Dalzell 34 Carter
Mary Wife 33
John son 13 Scholar
Mary daur 11 "
Catherine " 8 "
Margaret " 6 "
Samuel son 4 "
they lived in 105 Gordon St, North Everton
RG12; Piece: 2952; Folio: 25; Page: 43
(amended to include details and reference MA)
Richard & Samuel died in the workhouse have got there death certificates Richard 1893 Samuel 1900 just found the children baptism. The only thing like one you have said he changed his name the Mary Holdbrook that married John Dalzell had a son called William in 1850 he on the census 1851 they married August that year hope that helps because I don't no where else to look

[Bertieone]

Hi Mo,
The Robert posted earlier is not your Richard, that Robert can be traced throughout his life including his marriage. May well be related but definitely not Richard. John married Ellen Holdbrook, Is Mary a typo?

[lincsmo]

Hi Bert sorry don't know what "typo" I must be a bit thick

[simone]

'typo' i.e typing error

[lincsmo]

Bert yes it was typo it should have been Ellen had a son called William born 1850

[Bertieone]

Baptism,
Helena Holbrooke
Birth 13 May 1828
Bap, 25 May 1828
St Nicholas,
Father, Guilieme Holbrooke
Mother, Rosa Anna, Duragan

1841, Liverpool,
Rose Hollbrook, 40, Ireland
Wm H, son 15, Lancashire,
Ellen, Daughter, : :
John, son, 10 : :

HO 107, Piece 563, Book 4

1851,
Collingwood St.
Ellen Holdbrook, head, 21, fish dealer, Liverpool
John Holdbrook, brother, 19, fish porter : :
William Holdbrook, 11 months, son of Ellen : :

HO107 P2176 F 258 Page 4

[Bertieone]

1851,

William Richards, wife and family
Granville st North, 3 court

Lodging,
William Holdbrook, 51, bricklayers labourer, bn Ireland
Rosean Holdbrook, wife, 53, Ireland.
HO107 Piece2176, Folio309, Page3

1861
Woodstock st, Liverpool.

Thomas Gibson, head, 39, plasterer, Liverpool
Mary, wife, 38,
William, son, 18, plasterer,
Thomas : 15
Betsey, dau, 13
Catherine, dau, 8
John, son, 5
Joseph, : 4
Rosean Holbrook, lodger, 60, Ireland
Rg9 P2654 F245 Page37


It looks like Ellen's parents have possibly wiped their hands of her with her falling pregnant and her brother has stuck by her, the Gibson are a connection to the witnesses at the wedding, (Richard) can't say if their related.

[Bertieone]

St Nicholas , Liverpool.
Marriage, 12 Aug, 1839

Thomas Gibson, minor, bch, plasterer, Cavendish St, Father, Samuel Gibson, Plasterer.

Mary Holbrooke, minor, spin, Collingwood St, Father, William Holbrooke, Labourer

Witnesses, Patrick Riley, Mary Ann Riley,


Link, Rosean Holbrook, mother of Mary.

[csum2211]

I am coming to this conversation very late, but I hope some of you are still tuning in.
I am Clive Richard Summers, a grandson of Margaret Morris, nee Dalzell. Margaret, as someone has noted, married Charles Morris in 1912, migrated with 4 children to NZ in 1922; my mother, also Margaret, was their 5th child, born in Wellington 1924. She is now 92, in fine good health, living with my father, in a Retirement Village in Lower Hutt, NZ. I am guessing she is Richard’s last living grandchild? My middle name is for our Richard Dalzell. I am in Melbourne, and will be telling my mother everything you have found, we know very little.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Our original poster is still a member of the Forum and indeed a member of our Society so hopefully should be notified that you have posted a message.

If there are any queries we can help you with, please ask and we'll do our best.