Any map showing house names, Ullet Road, Sefton Park, 1871?

[retiringtype]

Yes, number 8 is not particularly close to Douro Lodge. Suggests it is not Elm Lodge.

[erika]

I know you are interested in the house, but I've found a James Baines in 1881 living in Barton upon Irwell with a few daughters.
Born abt 1824 in Liverpool
Widower
Ship Broker
19 Hr Albert Street, Barton upon Irwell

Piece 3881
Folio 49
Page 38

[daggers]

Here goes with another attempt at a reply to the many points made.
The James Baines at the heart of all this was a ship broker and owner of the Black Ball Line of sailing vessels which mainly ran to Australia. Some were famous for their fast voyages and their superior accommodation [for those days!] I am a descendant of his elder sister.

James was married at Altcar to Anne or Annie Brown[e], and Wiki has it wrong. I have seen the Bishop's Transcript of the marriage register.

He moved house often, possibly as his finances went up and down.

Mary Esther, the witness in the marriage at St Michael's, was his eldest child and was married in 1879. She then lived in the Barton and Eccles areas, now within Salford, and James lived with her in later years after his wife died [1872]. He died in Nile Street, in lodgings, in 1889.
There is a family grave in Tox. Pk. Cemetery for James, his wife, their only son and an unmarried daughter. The headstone is badly weathered and the lettering disappearing.

As to the 'Elms' house, we can now put aside the one in Linnet Lane. I suspect that the one on the corner of Sefton Park, still there as part of Bellerive school, may have been numbered as 8 in the early times, but was renumbered as more houses were built between Linnet Lane and the Dingle. Is there any way we can check this?

My next move is to try plotting the named houses on successive maps and see how that works out, but please continue to provide more pieces for this jogsaw. [edited:jigsaw!]

D

[MaryA]

I wonder if you went year by year in the Directories and see when it was named and when it was a number?

[Blue70]

Maybe it was the unnamed property across the road from "The Hamlet" now Belvedere Preparatory School which appears to be number 8 Ullet Road if you compare the 1881 directory with the properties shown here?

c1890s




Blue

[Blue70]

I don't think anyone mentioned the 1869 Slater's Directory entry that mentions James Baines at Elm Lodge apologies if anyone did and I missed it:-

Slater's Directory 1869




Blue

[retiringtype]

"The Lawn" was number 16 Ullet Road. Home of Egerton Stewart-Brown in the 1900, 1911, 1914 and 1938 Directories

"Park View" was number 20. Home of Emily Smith in the 1911 Directory

"Elmfield" was number 32. Home of Robert Holder in 1900

[daggers]

I have now studied the 1871 census forms covering Ullet Road, RD10/3803, fo.58 onwards. The enumerator’s description states there were 9 houses in Ullet Road within his enumeration district. These are listed on pages 31 to 35, but the following 12 are enumerated:

Schedule no 99 No 8 – Baines
Sch 100 No 10 -Saxton
Sch 101 Douro Lodge – Braga [the house still bears the name on the gate, but numbered 28]
Sch 102 Albert Park Mews – Warner, cab driver [this has changed function many times, now a petrol station]
Sch 103 Park View – Leveson
Sch 104 The Lawn – Parry
Sch 105 No 12 – McCosky[?]
Sch 106 No 16 – Robinson
Sch 107 No 14 – Nash [out of numerical order]
Sch 108 Broadclyst – Maselli [?]
Sch 109 No 4 – Rushton
Sch 110 No 2 – Reyter [?]
Then follow Sch 111 and 112 which have been crossed out. 111 was Elm House, 112 was Chapel???

I would like to think that the enumerator started at what is now the entrance to Sefton Park where James Baines was at No 8. Two houses downhill towards the Dingle was and is Douro Lodge. Albert Park opens below Douro Lodge and the former Mews site follows.
Filling in of sites and renumbering must have occurred at some stage.

I have looked at some books about James and his Black Ball shipping line, and Michael Stammers, once keeper of Maritime History at our Maritime Museum, believed that Elm House was later part of Bellerive School, in other words by the park gates, rather than at the lower part of Ullet Road.

James had several steep ups and downs with his business and seems to have moved house often. Between censuses I have only found directories as sources. Polling lists may be a way forward but I suspect many business men used their office address.

As before, all comments will be much appreciated.

Daggers

[Blue70]

I wouldn't use the order that the properties appear on the census images as a guide I would still think the property is the one that appears below, not specifically labelled here, number 8 Ullet Road:-

c1950





Blue

[retiringtype]

There are some clues in 1867 Gore's:



So it would seem that he was on the stretch of Ullet Road between Linnet Lane and Smithdown Road to the north east, at the Linnet Lane end.

[Bertieone]

1869, November 4, Liverpool Mercury



Also, October 1871, his wife gave birth to a daughter, 8 Ullet Rd

[retiringtype]

Looking at the 1840s map (see link below) "Elmfield" was then "Elm Cottage" and where "Retreat" and "Elm Lodge" are in Linnet Lane there's one property called "Finchett House":-

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344123#zoom= ... &layers=BT

Ullet Road near Elm Cottage would seem the most likely location for Elm Lodge. Per 1867 Gore's, James Baines lived on Ullet Road north-east of Linnet Lane.

So, somewhere near the junction with Aigburth Drive, on the opposite side from Bellerive College. There are still a couple of Victorian merchant's houses in that location.

[Blue70]

Looking at the 1840s map (see link below) "Elmfield" was then "Elm Cottage" and where "Retreat" and "Elm Lodge" are in Linnet Lane there's one property called "Finchett House":-

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344123#zoom= ... &layers=BT

Ullet Road near Elm Cottage would seem the most likely location for Elm Lodge. Per 1867 Gore's, James Baines lived on Ullet Road north-east of Linnet Lane.

So, somewhere near the junction with Aigburth Drive, on the opposite side from Bellerive College. There are still a couple of Victorian merchant's houses in that location.

The numbering doesn't support that location if the property was number 8 Ullet Road.


Blue

[retiringtype]

The numbering doesn't support that location if the property was number 8 Ullet Road.

I'm just looking at the evidence from the entry in the numerical section of 1867 Gore's Directory. Maybe he had moved up the road by the time of the 1871 census, or perhaps the enumerator's transcription is erroneous.

[Blue70]

I'm confused about Nash at 8 Ullet Road both before and after Baines was there on the 1871 Census?


Blue

[retiringtype]

I'm confused about Nash at 8 Ullet Road both before and after Baines was there on the 1871 Census?

Indeed. It suggests a problem with the enumerator's record.

[Blue70]

The numbering in the Kelly's 1881 directory goes up to 32 and ends before Linnet Lane. Some of the information we've found contradicts other information we've found. The more I've looked at the sources the more confused I've become


Blue

[Bertieone]

It appears any confusion caused is because Ullet Lane became Ullet Rd, the enumerator in 1871 was probably correct in his numbering, James Baines lived in Elm Lodge, Ullet Lane, no doubt number 8.
1862, snippet,


The 1867 Gores RT put up has James Baines next door to the Eagles. 1843 Gores Directory,
Ellen Eagles, 10 Ullet Lane.

[Bertieone]

Ullet Lane still gets mention in the papers, 1880s plus.

Was Ullet Lane ever officially changed to Ullet Rd? or was it a cartographer who decided what it should be, something they are very good at, Directory builders don't appear to be as accurate as they should be either.

[retiringtype]

So 8 Ullet Lane could have become 28 Ullet Road.

Here's the 1873 directory listing, with the Eagle nursery at 30: