Wales - fresh eyes needed please

[BarbaraW]

I have slowly been driving myself crazy today so need some help please.

OK here is the story, back in 1999 I hadn't started my paternal line. Williams/Wales too hard so I put it on the backburner.

However my cousin and his (late) dad did start it and kindly shared some certificate copies with me.

But now I am wondering whether I should have REALLY looked into this further for myself and not taken it at face value that they knew what they were doing (and of course they may have done) I have no idea what criteria they used when ordering said certificates. That wouldn't be so bad with unusual names but WILLIAMS in North Wales, well you can imagine.

So the first certificate they gave me was for my grandfather I think my uncle had some military papers of his where he got the DOB from:

1) Thomas John WILLIAMS born 22 Feb 1898 in Bethesda, father Robert Williams, Engine Driver in Slate Quarry and mother Ellen Williams (formerly OWENS)

Now I know this one is 100% correct because my grand-father is in the 1939 Register (Huyton) plus I have his death certificate, will, CWGC and other papers as he was killed in an accident in WW2.

2) Then there is a marriage certificate for the above parents Robert and Ellen, married in 1889 at LLandegai Parish Church, her father Thomas Owens a Quarryman, his father John Williams Gateman. Robert is a Stoker. Now this seems a bit strange as in the 1891 census he is an engine driver in the slate quarry (as he is on his son's birth certificate) but maybe he changed jobs in the 2 intervening years?

I have now found 3 marriages between Robert Williams and Ellen Owen/s in 1889 alone!!

3) last one is the birth certificate of Robert Williams b 1864, born at Cilgeraint Incline, Llandegai, father John Williams, slate wagon driver, mother Mary Williams (formerly Jones).

If the above marriage is wrong then how do I know if I have the correct Robert?

I can't even remember what censuses were online in 1999 so I don't know how my relatives knew these were the correct certificates and don't know what to do now, do you think I should scrap them and start again from scratch and buy the certificates again using my own criteria? There is not all that much online for Welsh Parish registers and although FMP supposedly have a Welsh collection there are huge gaps and I can't find anything that looks likely.

My uncle has passed away and my cousin is not on any social media and I have no email address for him.............

What to do?

[BarbaraW]

If I had to scrap this line and start again it wouldn't be the nightmare it would have been at one time where I went to the LDS and downloaded each image (except for my 1881 census CD's which have long gone) and then painstakingly entered all the data manually......

[Bertieone]

Name:
Leading Aircraftman Thomas John Williams
Birth
22 Feb 1898
Place
Bethesda, Gwynedd, Wales
Death
2 May 1943
Death Place
Shropshire, England
Cemetery:
West Derby Cemetery
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... 5&ref=acom

[Bertieone]

A Stoker and Engine driver stand side by side on the engine, a stoker upgrading to an engine driver would be acceptable.

[Hilary]

Was your Thomas John living with his parents in the 1911 census? If yes how long does his mother state she has been married and what is her place of birth and her husband's place of birth?

Have you found your Thomas John in the 1901 census, hopefully the family will still be at the same address as at his births? Again look at the parent's places of birth. Are their any siblings do they help?

[BarbaraW]

Name:
Leading Aircraftman Thomas John Williams
Birth
22 Feb 1898
Place
Bethesda, Gwynedd, Wales
Death
2 May 1943
Death Place
Shropshire, England
Cemetery:
West Derby Cemetery
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... 5&ref=acom

Yes that is my grandfather I put the photo on there of him and a very kind person from the Friends of Anfield Cemetery kindly went to West Derby Cemetery and took the photo of his gravestone and put it on the findagrave site.

[BarbaraW]

A Stoker and Engine driver stand side by side on the engine, a stoker upgrading to an engine driver would be acceptable.

OK something for me to think about thanks Bertie.

[BarbaraW]

Was your Thomas John living with his parents in the 1911 census? If yes how long does his mother state she has been married and what is her place of birth and her husband's place of birth?

Have you found your Thomas John in the 1901 census, hopefully the family will still be at the same address as at his births? Again look at the parent's places of birth. Are their any siblings do they help?

There are siblings Mary Ellen and Jane who I knew about but recently I've been in touch with another person on Anc researching the same family and she's told me there was another brother called Robert who I hadn't heard about. Her grandmother Jane and my grandfather above were siblings.

We both think that they are living with their mother's family on the 1901 census with no sign of her husband, not in the same street number but in the same street where my grandfather was born.

Piece 5285/F23/page 6

There is a likely family in Penmaenmawr in 1911 (which is where a lot of the family still live to this day and we did visit as children to see some elderly relatives) mother, father and 2 sons no daughters with them, they say they have been married 22 years and have 4 children born and still living no deaths. It's just the birth places that are a bit different but am now wondering if this is a local thing. For instance if somebody was looking up my birth it could be Edge Hill, West Derby or Liverpool if you see what I mean.

Piece 34530/Schedule Number 285

I like the way you make me think!!! Thank you Hilary.

[Hilary]

I think you may like this one
1891 census Llandegai it's just on the outskirts f Bangor
Tregarth ( address name seems to be an area of Llandegai)

Thomas Owens 54 slate quarry man
Jane Owens wife 50
Robert son 22
Jane dour 18
Mary daur 16
Maggie daur 11
Robert Williams son in law 26 railway engine driver
Ellen Williams daughter 20
Mary Ellen Williams grand daughter 1
All have Llandegai given as place of birth

I have my Snowdonia map out and Llandegai, Bethesda and Llanllechid are all very close together

I think that the marriage certificate you have for the couple at Llandegai Church is very probably correct.

[Hilary]

I think Thomas Owens married Jane Williams in 1870 possibly at Llandegai Church marriage registered in sub district of Llanllechid, district of Bangor.

[BarbaraW]

I think you may like this one
1891 census Llandegai it's just on the outskirts f Bangor
Tregarth ( address name seems to be an area of Llandegai)

Thomas Owens 54 slate quarry man
Jane Owens wife 50
Robert son 22
Jane dour 18
Mary daur 16
Maggie daur 11
Robert Williams son in law 26 railway engine driver
Ellen Williams daughter 20
Mary Ellen Williams grand daughter 1
All have Llandegai given as place of birth

I have my Snowdonia map out and Llandegai, Bethesda and Llanllechid are all very close together

I think that the marriage certificate you have for the couple at Llandegai Church is very probably correct.

Thank you very much Hilary for confirming my Census findings, I feel more confident now in my research.

[BarbaraW]

I think Thomas Owens married Jane Williams in 1870 possibly at Llandegai Church marriage registered in sub district of Llanllechid, district of Bangor.

Oh good one Hilary I never got as far back as to get a marriage for the above so thank you BUT please not another Williams

I think I am going to have to join Gwynedd family history society as I've seen they have the parish registers on microfiche or A4 printouts, it would make my search so much "easier" as the names are just TOO common.

[BarbaraW]

Well what a stroke of good luck I've had

I've been emailing a lady for about 3 weeks now who I contacted on Ancestry, her grandmother and my grandfather were siblings, it's the one who told me about the brother Robert. Her tree is online though her account is no longer active and she remembered getting her money back from the GRO as being unable to find certificates and of course it's the line I'm interested in. Last night she emailed me to say she was mistaken it wasn't as she remembered, she *did* have birth certificates for the 2 sisters (see above) one born 1890 and the other 1892 their father Robert is a Stoker on a Railway Engine on both

AND she had also bought the same marriage certificate as the one I have so double fists in the air punches.

[lynne99]

Well done Barbara. Perhaps I'll attack my Welsh line

[BarbaraW]

Go on Lynne I challenge you lol.

[lynne99]

After I've finished marking. In August perhaps I let you know.