Tracing Liverpool ancestors - Hargreaves

[Florence]

Hi
I'm trying to trace my mums paternal family and hitting brick walls! Any assistance would be great fully received.
All we know from my Grandfather, Robert Hargreaves (b.Liverpool 1915-1994) is that his birth certificate shows his mother as Margaret Thomas. We also know his father was also called Robert, my mum thinks he died shortly after my grandad was born.
The only other piece of info I have managed to obtain is a marriage certificate for a Margaret Thomas and Robert Hargreaves dated 26/02/1907 at St Matthews, toxteth park. Roberts profession is a ships steward, his age is 22 and his address is 67 Grafton St. His father was also Robert Hargreaves (deceased) profession Carter.
Margaret's age is 20, her father is James Thomas, profession Riveter.

I am puzzled as there are no records of these 2 newlyweds on any 1911 census records. Also my grandfather had sisters, Margaret appears to have other children from records I have found, I think the 1st child wasn't born until 1912 so quite a gap from 1907....
I decided to go down another route and google the address 67 Grafton St. I discovered it to be an Auxillary home for boys, linked to Holy Trinity industrial school. Why would Robert Hargreaves address be here ???? I also found a website and blog by a lady called Amanda, who was looking into the missing 1st world war memorial from Holy Trinity. It has a Robert Hargreaves listed, but again I don't know why these men were listed, if they were professional service men. Therefore it's probably not my ancestor.
Any help or pointers would be greatfully received, thanks

[Blue70]

Hi Florence

Welcome to the forum. I'm wondering with Robert away at sea whether Margaret was still working as a servant and recorded as a single woman? There's a Margaret Thomas, single, aged 24 years, born Liverpool, working as a children's maid for the Leach family at 26 Alexandra Drive Sefton Park in 1911.


Blue

[Florence]

Hi Blue

Thank you for that information, it never crossed my mind to consider those options, I'm finding all this new to me.
Margaret is shown as a servant on her marriage certificate so that is possible. Would she have declared herself as single for work purposes? Did people do that?

[Blue70]

Presenting herself as a single woman she can live in. We can't be sure it is her but the gap between the marriage and the birth of the first child is odd. Did they marry then separate then get back together? Did Robert being at sea make Margaret want to return to being in service rather than being at home alone?


Blue

[Bertieone]

Hi Florence and welcome,

Do you know if Margaret Hargreaves, nee Thomas, went on to marry George Roberts, West Derby, 1919, and have children?

During WW1, it wasn't uncommon for men who worked in the Merchant Service to join the Army.


Name:
Robert Hargraves
Birth Place:
Liverpool
Residence:
Liverpool
Death Date:
23 May 1916
Death Place:
France and Flanders
Enlistment Place:
Liverpool
Rank:
Private
Regiment:
The King's (Liverpool) Regiment
Battalion:
4th Battalion
Regimental Number:
11018
Type of Casualty:
Killed in action
Theatre of War:
Western European Theatre

Soldiers Effects, Widow, Margaret.

[Bertieone]

Though we don't know exactly where Robert was born, he clearly had a Liverpool connection.
A few snippets that may help connecting him to the soldier, a wide ranging search for marriages, 1885/1916 produces only one registered, Liverpool/West Derby to a Margaret, the 1907 marriage.

If he died shortly after the birth of his son Robert, there is no civil registration for a death between 1914/1919, Liverpool/West Derby, there wouldn't be for a soldier killed at war.

Between 1883/1887, there is one registration for a Robert Hargreaves, West Derby, 1884, Dec Qtr, 8b 520, however, this could be a Robert Hargreaves, born Fazackerley, (census info)

[Bertieone]

1901


Name:
Robert Hargroves ???
Age:
15
Estimated birth year:
abt 1886
Relation to Head:
Inmate
Gender:
Male
Birth Place:
Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:
Toxteth Park

RG13 P3426 F8 Page8
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/ ... sePUB=true

[BarbaraW]

Have you dismissed the Robert (b. 1884) and Margaret (b. 1889) Hargreaves with 3 month old Margaret living at 11 Kent Square? They say they have been married for 4 years and have had 2 children 1 of which died.

His occupation is Oil Cake Mill labourer, but maybe he decided to pack in the ships when he got married and had children?

Where there more than one couple with the same names that married in the same year (ish)?

** amended to say where there more than one Robert Hargreaves marrying a Margaret as obviously we don't know the above Margaret's maiden name......

[Bertieone]

Anc have it transcribed as Margreaves,

RG14 P22202,

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/ ... 02_0321_03

[BarbaraW]

No surprise there then, some of their transcriptions are appalling!! Obviously I used FMP

[BarbaraW]

If whoever did it had used their brain they would see that the letter "H" as in Head is written the same way. Duh!!!

[BarbaraW]

I would do a little tree with this family on Anc as they have the best Liverpool records and see where it takes me......

[Bertieone]

Possible deceased child 1911,

May Thomas Hargreaves, bn, 1907, Toxteth Park, 8b 152,

May Thomas Hargreaves, Died, 1910, Liverpool, 8b 26

[BarbaraW]

Well done Bert with the middle name the same as her mum's maiden name.

[Blue70]

Hi Florence

Do you know of a Margaret Hargreaves born Oct/Nov/Dec 1910 to match the 1911 census record?


Blue

[Bertieone]

Florence, have you this,

1891 census,
RG12 P2925 F110 Page43,

James Thomas 23, Riveter,
Hannah A Thomas 24
Margaret H Thomas 2
Samuel M Thomas 7/12

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/ ... sePUB=true

[Bertieone]

1888 Baptism.

[Florence]

Hi
Thank you for all the replies and information, very interesting.
I have been checking with my mum to confirm some of the details which is why I hadn't replied sooner.

We don't think Margaret remarried, although an aunt once said that Margaret was with someone called Price/Prince when my grandad was younger.

Bert, I too have found the census for 1891 with James Thomas as head. I'm sure this is Margarets family as James profession matches with the marriage certificate.
We also know that Margaret had a younger sister called Lizzie (Elizabeth), I found the same family on a later census and they have a child Elizabeth so I'm sure it's them.

The links to ancestry are not allowing me to view, I need to subscribe I guess.
I'm interested to look at the Robert Hargreaves age 15, inmate as to where and what this is.

The information regarding the death in 1919 of a soldier is very possibly Robert as we know he died after 1915 when my grandad was young.
I'm going to look into the birth of May Thomas Hargreaves too as this could be a link also.
I'm very grateful for all your help, thank you so much

[Bertieone]

1901 census, Robert aged 15, born Liverpool.

[Florence]

Hi Bert

This census record ties in to my questions and constant thoughts about why Robert has his address as Grafton St and it being a home for boys. I'm sure it must be him but not sure why at 22 would he record it as his address? Could it be his last abode and at his time of marriage he wasn't living at one place?