Re-visiting old censuses

[BarbaraW]

OK it's been a long time but finally I am back to this Brown family after many diversions and sidetracks. Mary you were SO RIGHT and I must apologise to having some resistance to accepting being descended from Irish Catholics not that there is anything wrong with that of course but I was brought up as strongly English Protestant not exactly Orange Lodge material but you get my drift!! But that was from my mother's side who (so far) have all been proven to be English Proddys. This family is my dad's mother's side and his mother, my nan, never spoke of where or who she came from as far as I can recall, mind you she was upwardly mobile and lived in Mossley Hill and probably didn't like to admit to her mother being born at 10 Gerard Street in the Scottie Road district!!

On the family tree for Thomas Brown and Mary Ann (nee Rice) using the censuses etc, I have 7 known children, however searching the Liverpool RC baptisms I have come up with 10 children, Mary you gave me most of these in a post here which I foolishly resisted and I can't say I am fond of the Latin but I think it's fantastic that you get the mother's maiden name and I saw one today (can't remember if it was one of mine) where it gave the daughter's marriage details as side notes some 20 odd years later!!

So here we have (hope this makes sense) the following:

ELIZA MARIA b 17 JUN 1859 ST JOSEPH'S - ON CENSUS AS LOUISA MARY b 1859

SARA ANNA b. 29 JUL 1861 HOLY CROSS - NOT HEARD OF

THOMAS b 09 AUG 1862 ST JOSEPH'S - NOT HEARD OF

MARIA ELINA b. 06 JUL 1864 ST JOSEPH'S - ON CENSUS AS MARY ELLEN b 1864

THOMAS JOSEPHUS b 09 AUG 1867 ST JOSEPH'S - ON CENSUS AS THOMAS b 1867

ANNA JOANNA 01 DEC 1869 SFX - ON CENSUS AS ANNE JANE b 1871 (or have I missed 1 and there are 2 ANNA JOANNA'S?)

SAMUEL b 01 MAR 1872 ST JOSEPH'S - ON CENSUS b 1872

ELIZABETHA b 21 AUG 1874 SFX - NOT HEARD OF THIS ONE

ROBERT b 1877 - ON CENSUS BUT CANNOT FIND A BAPTISM

ELIZABETHAE b 28 Nov 1879 ALL SOULS - ON CENSUS AS ELIZABETH b 1880

Do all of these baptisms seem likely for this family do you guys think?

[Bertieone]

As there was only one marriage in England & Wales between 1840/1890, Thomas Brown/Mary Ann Rice, Liverpool, 1857. It's unlikely those baptisms belong to anyone else.

Sara Anna burial,


Name:
Sarah Anna Brown, Gerard St, Liverpool.
Birth Year:
abt 1861
Age:
Infant
Death Year:
abt 1861
Burial Date:
16 Sep 1861
Parish:
St Oswald, Lancashire, England

[Bertieone]

Thomas Brown

Birth Year:
1862
Infant
Death
1862
Burial Date:
23 Oct 1862
Parish:
St Oswald, Lancashire, England

[Bertieone]

Elizabeth Brown, 77 Dorrington St

Birth
abt 1875
Age:
1
Death
abt 1876
Burial
6 Apr 1876
Parish:
Ford Cemetery, Lancashire, England

[MaryA]

Whew I had to read all the way through again to refresh my memory. I think sometimes we get a gut feeling if something is right or not, must have been how we worked on this one, at least you have the marriage cert now to confirm fathers to enable you to work back further.

Well done Bert finding those RC burials always difficult when the birth and death both fall between censuses.

Always keep an open mind, we don't know enough about our ancestors to categorically say what they were or did, look how many we have found who didn't actually marry at all and we think now that they were good holy Catholics who wouldn't do a thing like that!!

[Bertieone]

Robert Brown, 77 Dorrington St, Liverpool
Baptism
27 Aug 1876
Parish:
Everton, St Peter
Father's name:
Thomas Brown
Mother's name:
Mary Ann Brown

[BarbaraW]

Wow Bertie thank you so much this is amazing!!! I owe you a pint or a cuppa at least for sure!!!! This has been a brilliant week all round.

Thanks again and Cheers.

[BarbaraW]

Whew I had to read all the way through again to refresh my memory. I think sometimes we get a gut feeling if something is right or not, must have been how we worked on this one, at least you have the marriage cert now to confirm fathers to enable you to work back further.

Well done Bert finding those RC burials always difficult when the birth and death both fall between censuses.

Always keep an open mind, we don't know enough about our ancestors to categorically say what they were or did, look how many we have found who didn't actually marry at all and we think now that they were good holy Catholics who wouldn't do a thing like that!!

Duly noted Mary!!!! Thank you too for all your help.

[Blue70]

Well that was quick service from the GRO, my marriage certificate is here

William Brown, Mariner, 22, BACHELOR, father Samuel Brown, clergyman
Mary Ann Rice, Spinster, 20, father Joseph Rice, joiner.

So that must be an error on the census as he doesn't say Widower.

So would the Irish son of a clergyman get married in a C of E church and have his children christened in the Catholic faith?

Hi Barbara,

Did you find out any more about Samuel Brown the father of William who was a clergyman?


Blue

[BarbaraW]

Well that was quick service from the GRO, my marriage certificate is here

William Brown, Mariner, 22, BACHELOR, father Samuel Brown, clergyman
Mary Ann Rice, Spinster, 20, father Joseph Rice, joiner.

So that must be an error on the census as he doesn't say Widower.

So would the Irish son of a clergyman get married in a C of E church and have his children christened in the Catholic faith?

Hi Barbara,

Did you find out any more about Samuel Brown the father of William who was a clergyman?


Blue

No Blue not a thing. I emailed the Church of Ireland and the Methodist Church in Ireland and they both said No.

I spent hours on all kinds of sites pertaining to clergymen and the like reading up and scrolling through lists. I soon came to realise that although my religious knowledge is practically nil it became very clear that a clergyman would have to be pretty well educated, of course his father may not even be Irish maybe Thomas just happened to be born there by circumstance. I even looked at other trees on Ancestry for a clue but zilch.

So for now he's in the too hard basket along with all the others!! I haven't done anything about looking for Thomas yet except look for a few things online like the IGI (nothing) and I get lost in all records that say Ireland TBH........