Peter Lawless Dublin-L/pool Double Family Mystery c. 1911

[Caroline Lawless]

I really hope someone can help with this double family mystery

The four sons of Peter & Elizabeth Lawless from Dublin ended up in an orphanage in Liverpool, nobody in the family today knows the circumstances, what happened??
I cannot find any death records for Peter or Elizabeth in Ireland nor Liverpool, I have Ancestry membership but cannot find any info there.

Three of the brothers returned to Dublin but one brother Peter stayed in Liverpool but was never heard from again, what happened to Peter Lawless Jr I ordered a death cert for a Peter Lawless died Stanley Hospital in Liverpool on 2nd June 1960 aged 50 years and this gives the informant as E. Lawless widow of deceased, 3 Briars Street, Liverpool.
I don’t think this house exists today, any recommendations on where I go from here
Which Roman Catholic cemetery would he have been buried in and how do I access burial/headstone records Has he family still in Liverpool today

Peter and Elizabeth Lawless were married in Liverpool on 2nd Dec 1905 in St. Bridget’s RC Church, Berrington Hill. They returned to Dublin where their four sons were born 1906-1910. I have the family living in Dublin in April 1911 so would estimate they would have arrived in Liverpool anytime from then to approx. 1922.

The only clue as to which orphanage they were in was that my husband remembers his father recalling how he could go to Lyons for ice cream. I submitted a search to Barnardo’s but they confirmed the boys were not at any of their homes.

Family details as follows;

Parents;
Peter Lawless b. 18 Sept 1869 Ringsend, Dublin
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Doyle b. 1877/8 Co. Carlow

Children;
Thomas Joseph Lawless born Dublin 26 Feb 1906
John Lawless born Dublin 27 Oct 1907
Peter Lawless born Dublin 03 Sep 1909 - disappeared
Robert Lawless born Dublin 24 Sep 1910

Would be very grateful for any help I can get with this, many thanks.

[Hilary]

The 1939 National Identity Register on Find My Past has Peter Lawless born 3 September 1909 is living in Faulkner Street Liverpool. He's single.

[Blue70]

It looks to me like Peter married late in life and didn't have any children there is a marriage in Liverpool in 1955 to an Elizabeth Price formerly Gratton

Name: Peter P Lawless
Spouse Surname: Elizabeth Price Or Gratton
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1955
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume Number: 10d
Page Number: 729


Some more information:

- Briar Street is in the Kirkdale area of Liverpool https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.43370 ... 312!8i6656

- Possible places of burial are the council cemeteries of Kirkdale (the district cemetery) or Anfield (the city wide cemetery) he's not buried in the RC Diocese owned cemeteries of Ford or Yew Tree. The council cemeteries have denominational sections each of these have RC sections.

- St Bridget's RC church was in Bevington Hill near to Bevington Bush which was mentioned in the song Seth Davy (Whisky on a Sunday)

- This is a possible home they were sent to: http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/LiverpoolStVincentWB/

- Two archives that may have records:-

http://www.liverpoolmetrocathedral.org. ... -archives/

https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/arch ... ail#online



Blue

[Caroline Lawless]

Wow Hilary, thanks so much, delighted to know he was still in Liverpool in 1939.

Blue, thank you so much for the wealth of information The marriage in 1955 to Elizabeth certainly seems to fit, I will order a copy of the marriage cert. to confirm his fathers name, this will also confirm I have the right death cert.

It all seems to make sense, the fact he was single in 1939, had no children, hence no contact from anyone in Liverpool looking for family information over the years, also reason as to why his brother and nephew couldn't find him in the 1960's as he had died in 1960. Hopefully now if I can find his grave in Liverpool his nephews & I will take a trip over to visit his final resting place.

I will have a look through the links you put up and hopefully find more information there.

I'm amazed and very thankful to Blue and Hilary that we may very well have solved at least one family mystery within hours of my posting to this forum, thanks so much.

[Hilary]

Peter doesn't appear to be in Ford RC Cemetery so that would be one cemetery of the list.

He also doesn't appear to have left a will according to the Probate index.

[Hilary]

On the death certificate you have what's Peter's occupation?

[Caroline Lawless]

Hi Hilary, his occupation on the death cert in 1960 is Builders Joiner.

[Hilary]

I would say then that he's definitely the same as the Peter with the correct birth date in 1939 as he is stated to be a joiner.

[Blue70]

He may have been taught joinery when he was in the home.


Blue

[Caroline Lawless]

Terrific news, thanks again Hilary as that would confirm that it is the right Peter Lawless. It is so good to know at last, as for all the family knew he could have headed off to America, Australia or anywhere in the world.

I'll get in touch with Kirkdale & Anfield Cemeteries to see if they will confirm where he is buried, fingers crossed. Thanks to yourself and Blue for narrowing down the cemetery search.

Our next task will be to see if his wife Elizabeth had children prior to her marriage to Peter and try and get in touch to see if they by chance have any wedding photos or any photos of Peter at all, fingers crossed again.

Thanks Blue for the links. I had a look at the St. Vincent's Home for working boys and it is quite possible they were there and certainly Peter could have learned his trade from being there. I see from the Liverpool Metro Cathedral link you sent that you need to visit to access their records, so will make a point of that when we get to Liverpool. I'll have a good look now on the Liverpool library link to see what they may have.

Still curious to know what happened to their parents, but little by little hopefully the jigsaw will piece together.

You both have been a great help, much appreciated.

[Hilary]

John H Price married Elizabeth Gratton in 1943 in Liverpool entry on www.freebmd.org.uk

[Blue70]

You may not need to contact the RC Archdiocese. The Liverpool Record Office may have some of the RC institutional records. I would contact the Record Office first using that contact page I posted. You may need to pay their research service to go through the records for you due to the nature of the records.


Blue

[Blue70]

The council usually charges for burial searches I would firstly contact The Friends of Anfield a voluntary group who may be able to check to see if he is buried at Anfield:-

enquiries (at) friendsofanfield.com


Blue

[Caroline Lawless]

I have sent an email to friends of Anfield so hoping to receive a positive response there. Spent hours last night trying to figure out how to find Kirkdale cemetery records and gave up. Looking at the map, Anfield is a lot closer to where he was living so let's hope he's there.

I fleshed out Elizabeth Grafton/Prices tree and have the names of 2 of her grandchildren living in Liverpool. I sent a message via Facebook to one but seems the account isn't active. I'll have to buy credits on the whitepages to get a phone number.

Thanks once again Blue and Hilary. Making progress

[Blue70]

Kirkdale Cemetery is a council cemetery and to access burial records you either have to go via the Liverpool Record Office for older records or the council cemeteries service for more recent records. You could contact the Record Office after Friends of Anfield if he's not at Anfield and say you believe he was buried at Kirkdale his local cemetery and ask if they have records for 1960.


Blue

[BarbaraW]

Friends of Anfield have a very active Facebook group. I mistakenly thought my grandfather was buried there but it turned out to be West Derby Cemetery, a member of the group very kindly went to West Derby and took a photograph for me!!

[Caroline Lawless]

Thanks again Blue, you have been very helpful. I completed the online enquiry form to the link you sent so will be interested to see what they come back with and what their search fees are. Will judge then whether it would be better to visit the records office when we take a trip to Liverpool, which will be when we find out which cemetery Peter is buried in. I'm chomping at the bit at this stage

Barbara, thanks for the info on the Facebook page, I'll have a browse there now.

[Caroline Lawless]

UPDATE

Just to let you know that due to your help, the assistance of a very helpful researcher in the Central Library Record Office in Liverpool and the Friends of Anfield Cemetery, I was able to locate Uncle Peter's grave in Anfield Cemetery, having died in Liverpool in June 1960.

I also found the answer as to why the 4 boys were placed in an orphanage. (Though the name of the orphanage is unknown the boys are recorded in the Nugent Care record books) It was that their mother Elizabeth Lawless had died in Liverpool in 1918 aged only 43 yrs when the 4 boys were aged from 7 years to 12 yrs. From my research request with the Records Office I learned that Elizabeth was also buried in Anfield Cemetery.

Over the next few months via searches on Ancestry I was delighted to find a birth record for a daughter born to Peter jnr & Elizabeth Price/Grattan in 1956. From further research on Ancestry, a lot of Googling, a letter to the USA, I was overjoyed to receive an e-mail confirming that I had made contact with the daughter of Peter jnr., a long lost cousin. I was overwhelmed with joy when she was able to send me a photo of her father, our Uncle Peter in his army uniform. We have been keeping in touch by e-mail since.

So thanks once again to the members of this website who helped me break down the brick wall

The only unanswered question is what happened to the boys father Peter Lawless senior (b. Dublin 18 Sep 1869). It doesn't look like he returned to Ireland as I have searched all Irish civil death records in detail. The researcher in Liverpool didn't have a match either in the UK records, so the search continues...

[Bertieone]

Hi Caroline,

Have you checked out this chap? it might explain why the children ended up where they did when the mother died, transcription error on Anc has him as "Sawless" Soldiers Effects.

Peter Lawless, Bn, Dublin, died 7 January 1918, Persian Gulf, 1178, RGA.

Soldiers effects has mention of, Wid? Elizabeth Lawless.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60506 ... PUBJs=true

[Bertieone]

Medal Card, transcribed as Patrick, clearly Peter.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/ ... PUBJs=true