Private Seth Holden

[steveflan]

Born in 1897 and died in the Battle of Courtrai on 14 October 1918 whilst in the Cheshire Regiment. I've found his medal index card and have also found the Cheshire Regiment War Diaries which make fascinating reading. His number was 20163 on enlistment but was later changed to 202545 in 1917 (thanks to Daggers for confirming this previously [https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ ... 30&t=13921])

Couple of things that still niggle:

1. Why did he serve for the Cheshire Regiment when he was born and residing in Liverpool? Was there a limit to the number of men signed up to the Liverpool based regiments?

2. Anyone got any other ideas as to when I could find out when he signed up? I can't find any other documents about him in the usual places. I've found his medal card entry and his CWGC entry but I can't find anything else about his time in the military.

[MaryA]

1. Why did he serve for the Cheshire Regiment when he was born and residing in Liverpool? Was there a limit to the number of men signed up to the Liverpool based regiments?

I overheard somebody ask a similar question at the Military day on Saturday, but they were asking why did he serve for a Scottish Regiment. The answer was given that there were a load of lads signing up, probably at the time the Scottish Regiment and the Cheshire Regiment had fewer numbers than the Liverpool regiments so half of the bunch were told to go in one and half in the other until numbers were more even.

[Bertieone]

Charles Price Llewellyn was Attested to the 15th Service Batt, Cheshire Regiment (1st Birkenhead) on the 30th November, 1914. His number was 20160.
I think it was, next man in line gets the next number in line, if so, Seth would have signed that day or near to it.

[steveflan]

Thank you both

Mary - would appear to make sense, was just wondering whether there could be any other reason.

Bertie - Thanks for that. Looking into the movements of the Cheshire Regiment on The Long, Long Trail site (http://www.1914-1918.net/cheshire.htm), it appears that he also served in Gallipoli before moving to France.

[Bertieone]

I've tracked a few soldiers with numbers starting 20***, some lower and some higher than Seth's.
They have all belonged to the 15th or 16th Batt, Cheshire Regiment, these were the Birkenhead Bantams. (plenty of info, Google)

If Seth was below the required height, it could be the reason he joined up in Birkenhead.

[steveflan]

Cheers Bertie - I was thinking along the same lines, but everything I do have points to him being n the 1/4th Battalion (part of the Territorial force) which, from what I can gather, was a different Battalion to the 15th and 16th

[Bertieone]

Hi Steve,

No doubt he did move to 1/4 Batt, just trying to sort out his first enlistment number and a possible reason for enlisting in Birkenhead. Pity no service records available

[steveflan]

I know! I've found loads for one of my great-grandfathers who joined The King's in August 1915 but left in October 1916 due to varicose veins!

I have been looking at the War Diaries available on Anc. There's one for their time in Gallipoli and another, as previously mentioned, for when they were in Europe (which is when Seth was killed in action). They make fascinating and harrowing reading at the same time!

Unfortunately I don't have anything with regards to his height as I only found out he was killed in action when someone got some old photos out at a recent family get together and there hidden amongst them was an original newspaper cutting with his Roll of Honour entry (below)

[Bertieone]

Hi Steve,

No idea why this didn't pop up yesterday when I was looking,

[Bertieone]

Soldiers Effects,

Anc have transcribed as Seth Halden.

[Katie]

He appears in my wounded Database in 1916

7th-Sept-1916
Cheshire Regiment
Private
Seth
20163
Holden
Everton
Wounded

The lists were published 4-5 weeks after the incident, so he will have been wounded on or about 30th July 1916

[Bertieone]

He appears in my wounded Database in 1916

7th-Sept-1916
Cheshire Regiment
Private
Seth
20163
Holden
Everton
Wounded

The lists were published 4-5 weeks after the incident, so he will have been wounded on or about 30th July 1916

Still with his 15th number, wounded at the Somme.

[Katie]

If I am correct he was originally in the 15th Cheshire and was later transferred to the 4th Cheshire Regiment Territorial Force hence his number of 202545 possibly to fill in the gaps.

[Bertieone]

The Long Long Trail

15th (Service) Battalion (1st Birkenhead)
Formed at Birkenhead on 18 November 1914 by Alfred Bigland MP, as a Bantam Battalion. Moved to Hoylake.
June 1915 : came under orders of 105th Brigade in 35th Division at Masham and in August 1915 to Salisbury Plain. Adopted by the War Office on 15 August 1915.
Landed at Le Havre in January 1916.

16th (Service) Battalion (2nd Birkenhead)
Formed at Birkenhead on 3 December 1914 by Alfred Bigland MP as a Bantam Battalion.
Record same as 15th Bn.
6 February 1918 : disbanded in Belgium.

Probably transferred after February 1918

[luxor]

There is a remarkable photo of the Cheshires in a trench here:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... hotos.html

Also a fascinating photo of the Cheshire Bantam Ragtime Band... seems Ragtime was the big thing then; I'd always associated it with the years after the war. I found that my gm's mysterious brother, born 1911, was 'George Alexander'. There were no 'Alexanders', AFAIK, on either side, but Alexander's Ragtime Band was the big hit of 1911 and my ggf's obituary said he was a 'popular entertainer'. This Cheshires band is the first soldier's Ragtime group I've seen. They look like a right bunch of 'cheeky chappies' - I bet they put on a great show! So very young, though.

[MaryA]

That's a fabulous photo, wouldn't it be wonderful if anybody was able to recognise their ancestor.

The ukeleles were always a favourite with my dad and his brothers.

[luxor]

Mary posted a link to (mostly) London maps earlier, but the set of 'Others' are maps of Gallipoli:

http://mapco.net/other.htm

[steveflan]

Wow - what can I say? A HUGE thank you to each and every one of you, and I'm sure you won't mind me adding an extra bit at the end for Bertieone.

Also, thanks to Katie for providing the fact that he had previously been wounded - something I was totally unaware of and another little avenue of Seth's military life for me to explore.

Happy to say I've now found the images Anc that have been posted above. So it would seem that Seth was under the minimum height and hence went and joined The Bantams in Birkenhead - makes more sense to me now, and happy to find out why he was in the Cheshire Regt as well as a sense of pride in that he (along with many, many others) didn't let a small thing like height stop them from serving for their country.

I've seen the trench photo before, and feel it's probably the most powerful I've seen of what life on the front was actually like at that time. The story of the ragtime band is fabulous and a pity we don't know the names of all of the men on that photo - what a great addition that would be to their individual stories.

Once again, thank you all.

[luxor]

Remember you can now purchase a soldier's will:

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#soldiers

[luxor]

What was the regulation on height? IIRC, my ggf was only 5' 4", but joined the King's Lancashire T.F. and transferred to the King's Royal Rifle Corps in 1916. Anyone excluded must have been pretty short. Maybe half of them were underage; just children really. It's hard to imagine the experience of a 14 year old thrown into the Somme. (It's hard to imagine the experience of a 30 year old.)