Thomas Whitehead + Elizabeth - But Why Hughes middle name ?

[dwhitehead10]

Hi All,

Im a new member not only of the forum, but I've also joined the Society today .
Im completely new to Family research, only being doing it for about 3 Months and have become addicted, so have loads to learn .. I am hoping some of you could give me some advice..and direction ??? or may even have the whiteheads in your family...

Tracing back on my fathers side, i have managed to get back to a Thomas Whitehead born in Liverpool in 1804 or 1805 ..

From the 1851 Census this gives all the children.

Name Thomas Whitehead
Age 47
Estimated Birth Year abt 1804
Relation Head
Gender Male
Where born Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Liverpool
Town Liverpool
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district Liverpool
Sub-registration district Islington
ED, institution, or vessel 1bb
Household schedule number 116
Piece 2185
Folio 478
Page number 29
Household Members
Name Age
Thomas Whitehead 47
John Whitehead 21 - Son
James Whitehead 28
Daniel Whitehead 15
Elizabeth Whitehead 11
William Whitehead 10
Mary Whitehead 8
Ellen Whitehead 5

Thomas was living at 21 Burleigh Road North, Everton, West Derby when he died, 16 March 1886, with some of his children, ( have a copy of the Death certificate)

Im directly related to Daniel (Hughes) Whitehead. and believe I have confirmed all of Thomas's children details. However they all have the Middle name of Hughes

Im stuck in two directions.. 1) I know Thomas was married to an Elizabeth .. its on the 1841 Census, and she was about 5 years difference in age (but i know they rounded ages in 1841) - i can't identify Which Elizabeth he was married to .. I do know that she died before the 1851 Census (or left him ?) but thats the only entry on any of the census and he shows up as a widow..

I have contacted two direct descendants, through ancestry.com and we are all three stuck on Thomas and all have theories on who his wife may have been .. but we are all fairly new at family research ..

I know Thomas was a Tailor. (its been suggested he may have been an apprentice to a Hughes - but i can't find any such evidence)
so one theory i have been given is:

If he was born Born 20 Aug 1804 in Liverpool, he could have married an Elizabeth fazakerley, In the 1841 census, John Whitehead (11) the 2nd eldest child was staying 2 doors away with an Elizabeth Fazakerley (60) , in Plumbe street, were the family lived for all of thiner childhoods. Elizabeth would have been his grandmother .. She had a daughter Elizabeth.. she died a year after the youngest Daughter ellen was born . so all the dates are good, and she came from the same area of Liverpool BUT .the only marriage record i can find is Elizabeth to a Thomas Hughes ( originally born Thomas Griffiths) - and the Baptism record was changed showing him as illegitimate and changing the name back to his mothers name Hughes. She was Hanna Hughes.

If he is born 12 APR 1805, I have found a marridge to an Elizabeth Hughes, who would have died in the same year as ellen was born, so maybe in child birth ..but i can't find her exact date of death . But on Thomas's the death cert it says he was 82 so the maths does not add up with a birth date of 12 April 1805..i think this makes him 80, and he would have to be born in early 1804 or late 1803.. i have found a Thomas in 1803, but i can't connect him to all the Children ( on 2 from memory , and then only by first names ) .. so have almost discounted him ..

I can't identify the mothers maiden name from any of the children's details / records i have currently.. Maybe need to buy some Birth certificates ? but being new to this would they show me the maiden name of the mother or any other important details .. ? also not sure how to get one even .. ?

On the second point, I can't identify the potential farther of either Thomas, but i believe it could be Edmund Whitehead .. baptised on 15th March 1778 in Newton Heath, All Saints, Manchester, England and he became a marble mason .. but this is only a hunch ... i can't find any more records of him, in the Liverpool area .., or a death date .. so really its a guess really from looking at all the whiteheads form Lancashire and their locations and birth dates.. and from some of the trees i have seen online ..

Any advice on what i could do next to identify Thomas would be gratefully appreciated .I've tried the online parish records, ancestor.com My heritage and find my past ..plus a few others so far .. as Ive said - I'm a complete beginner ... so don't know were to go from here. So any guidance and suggestions would be gratefully received ..

Think this is long enough for a First Post !! - sorry for war and Peace .. but Ive loads more details, records etc so if I've missed something off that would really help suggesting a next step , please let me know ??

Kind Regards
DAVE

[Tina]

Hi Dave a very warm welcome from downunder. Lots of children were given their mother's maiden as their middle name.
I'm sure our genies will be of much help to you.
Enjoy your search!!
1851 census it looks like he is married? Other people have a definite W. Have a look, could have it wrong??
Their last child was Ellen bn Lpool aged 5.
1841 his age rounded off at 35 and Elizabeth 30 both born Lancs.

[Bertieone]

Name:
Daniel Whitehead Hughes
Gender:
Male
Baptism Date:
16 Feb 1835
Baptism Place:
St. Peter's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father:
Thomas Hughes
Mother:
Elizabeth

[MaryA]

Hi Dave and welcome to both the Forum and the Society.

As you admit to being a newbie to our hobby (obsession ) I'm sure you won't mind me suggesting you read a few suggestions we have put together here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =25&t=6937 and in particular the link in the bottom post to the Society of Genealogists describing what information is on a Certificate - by the way never order a certificate via one of the subscription sites, always use either the GRO or the local Register Office - price matters!

So to confirm, yes the benefit of following the "paper trail" which we all insist is needed for correct evidence, is that birth certificates which began in 1837, will give you the mother's maiden name. An RC baptism will often give you similar information, however a CofE baptism doesn't include the mother's maiden name.

If giving details from a census, would you please give it in this format - your own typed work doesn't breach copyright, plus the additional information is often crucial, especially birthplaces, occupations and marriage status.

1851 - HO107; Piece: 2185; Folio: 478; Page: 29
3 Elury Terrace, (Islington area) Liverpool
Thomas Whitehead Head W 47 Tailor Liverpool
John Son U 21 Tailor "
James " " 20 Blockmaker "
Daniel " " 15 Errand Boy "
Elizabeth daur U 11 "
William son 10 Scholar "
Mary daur 8 " "
Ellen " 5 "

If you order a birth certificate and you aren't sure from the indexes whether it is yours or not, state that the GRO reference is NOT know (you can do this on the online form for the GRO) but giving the information of the parents first names. They will then do a search of one year either side of the year you give and if they don't find the one with the criteria you give they will refund your money.

You also need to bear in mind that our ancestors were not always literate and an age given at death was provided by somebody else, not the deceased themselves and may not be accurate, allowances of a few years either way should always be made.

But to go forward - yes you need the mother's maiden name and this will be gained from the birth certificate of one of the children, born after 1837.

We look forward to an update and also seeing more of you around the forum.

[Bertieone]

Hi Dave,

I would order this birth cert,

1840.
Hughes William Whitehead Liverpool 20 311

From this you will get the parents names, mothers maiden name

[BarbaraW]

"But on Thomas's the death cert it says he was 82 so the maths does not add up with a birth date of 12 April 1805..i think this makes him 80, and he would have to be born in early 1804 or late 1803."

The death certificate dates are not always accurate, they are only as good as the person registering the death reported them and people didn't celebrate birthdays in the manner we do today, so no birthday cards, cakes or other yearly reminders of how old you are , so you may not have even been sure of your own birth date let alone a family member remembering.

[Bertieone]

William Whitehead Hughes
Baptism Date:
15 Jun 1840
Parish:
Liverpool, St Peter
Father's name:
Thomas Hughes
Mother's name:
Elizabeth Hughes

[Bertieone]

If you have Anc, the link should take you to some of the other children,

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss ... gl=34&gst=

[dwhitehead10]

Thank you ALL so much for the replies - its really really appreciated..Im quite taken aback at how quickly I got a response .. Ill note all the points and also Order the Certificate for William Hughes Whitehead today (never done that before so will do it this afternoon) .. and let you know what i get back ..

Im so pleased i joined and posted..

Will be back soon ..
DAVE

[dwhitehead10]

"But on Thomas's the death cert it says he was 82 so the maths does not add up with a birth date of 12 April 1805..i think this makes him 80, and he would have to be born in early 1804 or late 1803."

The death certificate dates are not always accurate, they are only as good as the person registering the death reported them and people didn't celebrate birthdays in the manner we do today, so no birthday cards, cakes or other yearly reminders of how old you are , so you may not have even been sure of your own birth date let alone a family member remembering.

thanks Barbara - had not though of it in that way - thats how new i am at all this .. Thank you

[dwhitehead10]

If you have Anc, the link should take you to some of the other children,

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss ... gl=34&gst=

Thanks Bert

[dwhitehead10]

Hi Dave and welcome to both the Forum and the Society.

As you admit to being a newbie to our hobby (obsession ).

Thanks Mary - ill have a good read and also follow the posting tips - thanks for the guidance and help

Dave

[BarbaraW]

Thank you ALL so much for the replies - its really really appreciated..Im quite taken aback at how quickly I got a response .. Ill note all the points and also Order the Certificate for William Hughes Whitehead today (never done that before so will do it this afternoon) .. and let you know what i get back ..

Im so pleased i joined and posted..

Will be back soon ..
DAVE

Dave, you really cannot just go on Anc and hope to find the family tree going right back with accuracy that's a classic error that so many make as this "hobby" becomes more popular. There are so many wrong trees on there it's quite scary, for my own family for instance where people have never bought a certificate (that I can see evidence of) then others copy it all and then others copy them and it soon becomes a very tangled web.

I can see so many innacuracies and downright errors I very rarely look at others trees for this reason preferring to do my own research with the help of this great forum of course, but it should really be slow methodical research with, as Mary so rightly says, a paper trail and that means you have to buy certificates as needed. Personally I can't afford to buy every single birth, marriage and death certificate for every single member on my tree but sometimes we have no choice as not every record is on Anc, IGI, FMP or any of them and we sometimes even have to go to the record office and scroll through microfilms.

[Bertieone]

Hi Dave,

Do not order certs from the likes of Anc, etc,


http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

[MaryA]

But also bear in mind that Ancestry does have a very good set of databases for Liverpool, we are very lucky and often don't need to purchase a lot of marriages at least.

[dwhitehead10]

Hi All.

I finally managed to get a birth certificate for William Hughes Whitehead ....

And its answered some of the questions i raised in the thread, but still being new to all this , its opened up even more .. Maybe you can help me understand what the certificate is telling me ..


Born: 13th april 1840
Name: William Whitehead
**********: Boy
Name and Surname of farther : Thomas Whitehead Hughes
Name, surname and Maiden surname of Mother: Elizabeth Hughes Formerly Fazakerley
Occupation: Tailor
Informed by : Thomas Whitehead Hughes His Mark X farther Clutton court Plumbe Street
Registered 16th April 1840

So this explains the Mother she is Elizabeth Fazakerley, but Thomas appears to be using Whitehead as a middle name, or maybe a double barrelled Surname.

I have found a Hannah Hughes (Seamstress) Born 1786 had a Child Thomas, 11th October 1804 , and from the Baptism record, St Peter , Liverpool the record was changed in June 1831, in the presence of Hanna Hughes . She had him when she was 18 , and he was Illegitimate, the farther being originally registered as Thomas Griffiths, crossed out .

So am i now looking for a Mr X Whitehead marrying a Hannah Hughes , after Thomas's birth in 1804 ...( I believe) which would mean He took up up his step farther name ???? (or maybe they didn't marry at all ??)

ALL advice welcome

Regards
DAVE

[alex69]

It appears that HUGHES was not the middle name but the Surname with WHITEHEAD the middle name or double barrelled surname.

Thomas HUGHES (tailor)married Elizabeth FAZAKERLEY on 31 May 1829 at St Nicholas Liverpool.

Lancs OPC has Baptisms for the following ALL with Thomas HUGHES tailor as father and mother Elizabeth:-

JOHN WHITEHEAD HUGHES bpt 8 March 1830
THOMAS WHITEHEAD HUGHES 31 Dec 1832
DANIEL WHITEHEAD HUGHES 16 Feb 1835
ELIZABETH WHITEHEAD HUGHES 23 May 1836
WILLIAM WHITEHEAD HUGHES 15 Jun 1840

For all of these address is shown as Plumbe Street.

Furthermore there are the following entries WITHOUT the Whitehead with father Thomas (tailor of Plumbe Street) and mother ELIZABETH

ELIZABETH HUGHES 12 Feb 1838
MARY HUGHES 23 Feb 1842
ELLEN HUGHES 15 Sep 1845

The following entry has father Thomas (tailor) and mother Elizabeth BUT has address as Garden Street

ANN HUGHES 1 Dec 1828


ELIZABETH FAZAKERLEY bpt 25 Jun 1806 (born 1 May 1806) was daughter of JOHN FAZAKERLEY (Whitesmith) and ELIZABETH SWIFT also of Plumbe Street. It seems place of abode was the same when she married as it had been at the time of her birth.

other children were THOMAS bpt 17 Feb 1805 1805 (dob 20 Nov 1804); JOHN 19 Jun 1808 (dob 15 Mar 1808) and THOMAS 1 Apr 1810 (dob 1 Mar 1810).

Alex

[dwhitehead10]

Alex - thank you So Much , thats great , thank you for your time .. Ive been banging my head against this for so long now, and now I'm off and flying again ..

One question ? I can't find a death date for Elizabeth Fazakerley , i believe it to be after 1846 or after, but she is not in the 1851 census and Thomas is shown as a widower .. Looked in Parish records ect , and can't spot anything - any ideas ?

Thanks
DAVE

[Tina]

Hi Dave, so many deaths for an Elizabeth Hughes at this time and a few years on. Sorry can't help.

[dwhitehead10]

Thanks for looking Tina. I'll keep on looking but appreciate your time.
Dave