James Jenkins C1880

[Toosh]

Hi

Can anyone help/advise with the following:

I have a James Jenkins who in 1902 age 22 married Charlotte Ellen Dodd. Occupation of James is Carter and his father is also James, occupation Carter. This makes James born c.1880 I have this marriage certificate.

James on 1911 Census age 31 This makes his birth c.1880

James died 1937 age 59 this makes his birth c.1878

The problem I am having is the birth registration of James. The only two birth registrations I can find are 1879 his father is called James but this James married was married to Annie Reynolds and 1882 but this James father is called Thomas but I cannot link these to him. The only connection I can find but cannot prove is the 1881 Census which shows a James Jenkins age 2 makes his birth c1879 with parents James (a Carter) and Elizabeth. That said, I cannot find a marriage for a James and Elizabeth. The only marriage I can find is one in 1877 for a James Jenkins and Elizabeth Hutchings, but this couple emigrated to America.

Has anybody got any ideas to what I may do now?

Toosh

[Karen]

1901 Census? (Piece: 3409; Folio: 27; Page: 45)

104 Ashfield Cottages, Liverpool
James Jenkins head mar 40? Quay Carter Liverpool
Elizabeth " wife mar 39 Liverpool
James " son s 20 Quay Carter Liverpool
Joseph " son s 10 Liverpool
Mary J " daur s 8 Liverpool

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

On James death certificate it wasn't him who gave the details, but whoever registered the death - and they may not have been positive about the details.

The marriage took place in St Albans, Bevington with James giving his address as 47 Burlington Street.

The 1901 census for James with parents James and Elizabeth in Ashfield Cottages is indeed in the right area, with the 1891 census in Teulon Street, not too far distant and presumably the 1881 census you have found is them in Hornby Street so all tracing backwards seem to match.

The marriage of James Jenkins to Elizabeth Hutchings took place in St Paul, North Shore, Kirkdale which also fits for location of the family we are searching for.

There is a baptism for his brother Thomas - All Saints, Liverpool on 25 July, 1883, born 25 May, 1883, parents James and Elizabeth, above 4C 1H Sheridan Street, occupation Carter.

Also at St Albans, Bevington for his brother Joseph on 15 May, 1889, born 15 May, 1889 abode 2C ?H Bond Street, occupation Carter.

If you ordered one of these birth certificates giving the exact dates of birth and the criteria that the parents names are James and Elizabeth, one of these will give you the mother's maiden name.

[Toosh]

Hi Karen and Mary
I will get back to you as I have my grandchildren coming to visit for a few days - I have certificates for the people you mention but with not being able to find the registration of James birth or his parents marriage I have put them to one side for the moment.

[MaryA]

Unless you suspect the father has had two marriages then the mother's maiden name should be the same for the other two as for your James.

[Katie]

This family of Jenkins rings a bell with me. I think I helped someone years ago. I have some notes in one of may many books. If you bare with me I will dig it out and see what I found.

[Toosh]

I am sorry I have not got back to you sooner but the grandchildren, from down South, have only gone back last Friday.

With regards to Mary A queries:
The person who registered the death was J Jenkins – son, this could have been either John his first son or James the third son – I think it is him as he lived in Newlands Street when he married in 1942 and the address of the J Jenkins who registered the death is shown as Newlands Street.

With regards to the marriage at St Albans, the address of James is shown as 47 Burlington Street, but when I looked at the electoral registers when the library moved to Sandhills while work was being done in the main library there was no evidence of James living there, in fact the number was not recorded!!

Those are the Census records I have – but who are the family of Jenkins living in Jersey Street also in 1901?

The marriage of James and Elizabeth Hutchings I have discounted as they emigrated to America.

I have the birth cert for Thomas which says born 28 May 1883 in Roscommon Street and registered 5 July 1883, mother’s address shown as Sheridan Street.
As for Joseph his birth cert says born 8 May 1889, in Bond Street and registered 24 June 1889. This is completely different to the baptism register details!
I also have a birth cert for Mary J, born 6 November 1891 in Pugin Street and registered 5 January 1892 by Mary Jane Howard of Teulon Street – present at birth.

The maiden on all the birth certs is Carroll – but cannot find anything for a marriage or the birth of James 1879/80 – mystery.

I have no reason to suspect that James (the father) married twice - can’t even find one marriage.

[MaryA]

Sorry for the delay, I also have been away.

I think you may have to accept that James and Elizabeth were not married, this does often happen and there may have been a reason for it eg one of them having been married previously and not free to remarry, I don't think this is the reason in this case because of the ages.

As you are fairly certain that the mother's maiden name is Carroll, you could request the GRO do a search for James birth registration, using the criteria of the parents names. If you make this request for 1879 they will search one year either side, so include 1878-80 and if the parents names don't match any entry they will refund your money - just make sure you uncheck whether the GRO reference is known on the request page.

If their search throws up no results, then a rethink about who his parents actually are - either one of them with a different partner, perhaps James was previously married, or else they hadn't married and James was registered under the name Carroll.

[Toosh]

Hi Mary
I have already had a search done by the GRO and they could not find anything - I have also done one with Liverpool and they again did not find a birth. I am still baffled by the other family of Jenkins in 1901 in Jersey Street, this is near to where the family in later years all settled, in fact, a cousin originally from Liverpool, once told me that the "apple never falls far from the tree". I am a stickler for only putting down what I can prove. I have looked at trees on Ancestry and find that they just seem to copy what other people have said. I have now put my tree as private and not public - did not want too but some just let you do all the work and supply the information from the certs I have bought.

[MaryA]

Your thoughts run the same as most of ours do, some have learned the hard way.

I have already done an unsuccessful search of the online baptisms for a James Carroll, mother Elizabeth, but my suspicions are that perhaps James Jenkins wasn't his father by marriage to Elizabeth, and so the registration was in another name. It would be quite reasonable for young James to give his father's name as either the man he always looked to in that place, or possibly even in fact, just that it wasn't legal.

He could also have been the son of a sister of James or Elizabeth and they "adopted" him, no legal documents for that time of course.

Results often pop up when you least expect them so never give up, but in the meantime why don't you give the full details of the other family in Jersey Street, including the reference and I'm sure we would try to look all around and try to make connections.

[Bertieone]

1901,
RG13 P3473 F117 P42
6 Jersey St,

James Jenkins 39 General Carter
Elizabeth Jenkins 39
James Jenkins 18 Carter
Joseph Jenkins 11
Margaret Jenkins 9
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss ... &ml_rpos=2

[Toosh]

Thanks - I will give you some details of a marriage I have found with regards to an Elizabeth Carroll - If I can still find the marriage cert I have filed away, I will have a look for it after tea. The details Bert has put on for the 1901 - do you require any more info as to were Jersey St is?

[MaryA]

Jersey Street is near Robsart Street.

[MaryA]

You know the spacing of the children, despite the anomaly of the youngest girl's name, makes me wonder if they had moved from one address to another and the enumerator merely collected the census entries on a different day, so these could be the same family down twice.

[Toosh]

I have a copy of a marriage cert for Elizabeth Carroll to Edward Ellis which I thought I had downloaded from Ancestry but cannot find it anymore on their site which states:

25 Dec 1878 Elizabeth Carroll age 19 of 2 Curzon St, father Thomas Carroll (brass plate maker)?
Edward Ellis age 22, brass refiner 32 Dodderridge St, father Edward Ellis – deceased, either tailor or Sailor.

I have made notes on this cert for the 1881 Census – he is living in 19 Houlton St, brass refiner along with wife Elizabeth and daughter Ada 3 months.

I can find them also in 1891 with Ada and more children.

So I have discarded this Elizabeth Carroll.

With regards to the family in Jersey St - a few years ago I asked the Liverpool Reg office to do a search for a Margaret (they actually do 4 searches at a time) - but once again nothing came up.

Oh, how I wished I had asked dad more when he was alive - he died in 1984.

[MaryA]

Oh, how I wished I had asked dad more when he was alive - he died in 1984.

Not sure even his memory would have gone back that far

Have you considered my suggestion of being enumerated twice at different addresses?

[Bertieone]

There is a difference between the 2 families. The Jersey St father and son, James are recorded as General Carters, the Ashfield Cottages pair are Quay Carters, likely to be confined to working Quaysides and Wharfs, etc.

Can anything be read in to James in later life, 1911, being a Dock Labourer, previously associated with Quaysides, being in that environment?

[Toosh]

Hi Bert
That is something I had not even looked at - In 1902 when James (son) married his occupation is down as "Carter".
1st child was born in 1903 he is a "labourer" living in Epsom Street

2nd child was a still born in 1905 - from burial records at Anfield living at Beatrice St

3rd child born 1906, father is "Carter living in 8c 8h Arkwright Street
1906/7 James shown on voting register as living in Arkwright Street - it says house successive 8 in 8c and 32 Arkwright Street (don't know what this means). This child, Elizabeth, died in 1908 age 2 residence now shown as Ascot Street

4th Child born 1907 father "Dock Labourer" address Epsom Street, then when he is bapt in 1907 address is shown as Ascot Street, father "Labourer"

5th child birth reg 1910 - his age seems to alter from registration to marriage which says he would have been born 1912 - by the time of his marriage James (father) was shown as a Labourer, deceased (he died in 1939)

6th child born 1912 in Arkwright Street, married 1936, father shown as Labourer

7th child born 1915 at Elias Street father shown as "Dock Labourer" when this child was married in 1935 father shown as "Labourer" and the address is shown as Netherfield Road

8th child born March 1918, address shown as Roscommon Street, father "Dock Labourer"

9th child birth registered 1920, died 1921 age 12 months address shown as Roscommon Street

When James died in 1937 age 59 his address is shown as Gleave Street, and his occupation as "General Labourer"

[Bertieone]

I noticed Thomas Dodd, Charlottes father, was also recorded as a Quay Carter, along with his son in the 1901 census, perhaps James was a work colleague and was introduced to Charlotte, clutching at straws springs to mind.

The 1911 census has Hannah Dodd, Violet Dodd and Sarah Jenkins, a boarder living with them, not sure who Sarah is, yet.

1911 has Violet Dodd marrying Thomas Robinson at All Saints, Liverpool, the witnesses were Joseph Jenkins and Mary Jenkins, at first I thought these were man and wife, they could be brother and sister from the Ashfield Cottages census, 1901.

[Toosh]

Bert I have all this and the thing that struck me was the Sarah Jenkins mentioned living with Hannah and Violet Dodd must, in theory, be related to Charlotte and James Jenkins as it is too much of a coincidence. I have traced and found a marriage for her, these are the notes I have made:

Then 3 Marriages for:

Elizabeth in 1902 age 20 (1882) - father James,
Sarah Jane in 1914 age 21 (1893) - father James,
Joseph 1915 age 24 (1891) father James,

Don’t know if bros and sisters, cousins or what as cannot find any births/reg for them, assuming that they have given their correct ages.
The only Elizabeth I have found has parents John and Ann, b. 22.11.1880 cr 4.12.1880 at St Anne and then another one same parents b.22.11.1880 cr. Feb 1881 at St Peter??