The 'Ethel Kelly' brick wall - advice please!

[ZED]

Ethel Kelly b. 1904 in West Derby was my Grandmother's sister. Unfortunately I have been unable to find out much about her ... due mainly to the name Ethel Kelly being so very common in Liverpool around that era!

Her Father was George Thomas Kelly (1875-1955) and her mother was Amy Anderton (1877-1910).
Her only sibling was Amy Frances Kelly (1898-1978).

When Ethel's mother (Amy Kelly - nee Anderton) passed away in 1910 aged 33, George T Kelly and his two daughters moved in to live with his Mother, Ann Kelly, at 18 Chester Rd, Tuebrook ... and they were there at the 1911 census.

And that is the last snippet of info that I have about Ethel Kelly!
Please can anyone suggest how (or even 'if') I can take my research further forward?

[Blue70]

Here is Ethel's baptism record showing her date of birth there are no notes included about any future marriage:-

Name: Ethel Kelly
Birth Date: 10 May 1903
Baptism Date: 31 May 1903
Parish: Blessed Sacrament RC
Father's name: Georgie Thomas Kelly
Mother's name: Amy Anderton


Blue

[Hilary]

Was Ethel a witness at her sister Amy's wedding? If she wasn't who are the witnesses?

Have you checked the electoral roll for Amy's address at marriage as that might help?

It might be worth looking for George the father in directories and then checking those addresses in electoral rolls.

[ZED]

Many thanks Blue ... having Ethel's accurate d.o.b will be very useful.

And many thanks to you too Hilary, for those excellent tips.

[MaryA]

Both father and sister have middle names, so I would imagine she might also, although neither the baptism nor the birth entry - assuming this is the correct one, suggest one.
Births Jun 1903 KELLY Ethel W. Derby 8b 282

I did a search of Lancashirebmd marriages between about 1920 and 1960 and although yes there are quite a number of Ethel Kellys, nearly all of them give a church, ie married in a C of E church, and only one gave Liverpool Register Office or Registrar Attended.

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1930
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
KELLY Ethel C BARNES Frederick Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_LP/399/236

If it was possible to discover whereabouts the family were living in 1930 we could look at the nearest RC churches to see whether it might be her.

[Daisycakes]

There were only 4 Ethel Kelly's married in the West Derby that I could see and they were 1922 to Joseph Green....1926 to Harold Shannon....1927 to James Gallie....1931 to Charles Chappell ...all of the other Ethel's listed had a second initial.....Not much help I'm afraid

Ann

Oops sorry Mary just seen your post

[Hilary]

George Thomas Kelly leaves a will. Probate is granted to Amy she will have been listed in the will as an executor. I would suggest you see the will to see if it mentions Ellen or children of Ellen.

You may be able to see the will at Lancashire Archives (I can't remember up to the date they have the wills written in books). They can't make copies so you would need to visit if they have them. Other than that you would have to buy a copy. The will could be a great clue to Ellen.

[Hilary]

There's a Mary Ellen Kelly born 10 May 1902 died September 1983 registered Sefton. The birth date is one year out maybe just coincidental?

[Hilary]

Amy also left a will this one you would be able to see at Lancashire Archives

Amy Kelly of Stonebridge Farm West Derby wife of George Thomas Kelly died 24 July 1910at Cronkite ne Mona Onchan Isle of Man. probate Liverpool to Richard Francis Anderton gentleman effects £416 19s 3d

Amy was buried at Douglas Borough Cemetery on 27 May 1910. Could Ellen have gone over to the Isle of Man to her relatives there?

[Blue70]

Hi ZED

Have we ever discussed your Anderton line? It's one of the old Catholic families. That line appears to go back to Thomas Anderton and family who were living in West Derby on the 1767 RC Census:-

Amy - Richard Francis - Richard - William - Christopher - Thomas

The Thomas Anderton in this line married one of my ancestors. In 1760 Thomas Anderton (husbandman), widower married Catherine Cropper, widow (her birth name was Catherine Lawrence) at St Mary, Walton. My line is via John Cropper and Catherine Lawrence. Their daughter Esther Cropper AKA Esther Anderton married Robert Brookfield and moved to Toxteth in the 1770s.

Here is this Anderton family in 1767:-

RC Census 1767

West Derby

Anderton, Thomas, 44, Farmer, West Derby, 5 years
Anderton, Katherine, 42, Wife, West Derby, 5 years
Cropper, Alice, 20, Step Daughter, West Derby, 5 years
Cropper, Ellen, 18, Step Daughter, West Derby, 5 years
Cropper, Thomas, 13, Step Son, West Derby, 5 years
Anderton, Jane, 10, Daughter, West Derby, 5 years
Anderton, Margaret, 9, Daughter, West Derby, 5 years
Anderton, Katherine, 7, Daughter, West Derby, 5 years
Anderton, Christian, 5, Daughter, West Derby, 5 years
Anderton, Christopher, 1, Son, West Derby, 1 year

(Esther Cropper was working on the Cunliffe farm in Knowsley in 1767)


Blue

[Hilary]

Sorry got Ethel and Ellen confused in one of my posts so please ignore the death I found for Mary Ellen above as it's wrong!

Thanks Blue70 for pointing this out.

[ZED]

Gosh, thanks ever so much to everyone for your invaluable help.

Although many of the family did have middle names, it didn't seem to be a 'fashion' with them, and there are several single-named members throughout the generations, so I think Ethel was quite likely to have had just the one name.

With regard to a possible marriage for Ethel ... my Grandmother (Amy Frances Kelly, Ethel's sister) married a C of E chap at St Philips Church in West Derby (1922), so Ethel may have also been a 'lapsed Catholic' like her sister.

Hilary ... please could you tell me: do I need to make an appointment at the record office in Preston to view the Wills?
Practically the entire family of Richard F Anderton moved over to the I.O.Man ... his daughter, Amy Kelly went there when she was dying (she had TB) while her husband and daughters (Amy Frances and Ethel) remained in Liverpool; but yes you're right ... there is a possibility that Ethel may have later moved to the I.O.Man too.


Oh my goodness Blue ... yes, it's the same Andertons!!! What a coincidence. This is how my line pans out:
Amy Anderton (1877-1910) m. George Thomas Kelly ... (my great-grandparents).
/
Richard Francis Anderton (1848-1935) m. Ellen McCraith
/
Richard Anderton (1822-1906) m. Margaret Ann Shaw
/
William Anderton (1792-1868) m. Isabella Greenhalgh
/
Christopher Anderton (1766-1820) m. Ellen Ford
/
Thomas Anderton (1724-1814) m. Catherine Cropper

[Hilary]

You don't need to make an appointment to go to Lancashire Archives but it would be worth checking if they have the 1955 will. The wills are copied into large books. Tell them they are wills proved at Liverpool and mention the fact that you know they are copied into books.

If you do not have a card for Lancashire Archives or. CARN card for another archive you will need to take some identity with you to get one. Driving licence , bank statements, utility bills etc. I think they need two forms of identity but I expect it will be on their website.

[ZED]

OK, thanks Hilary.

I've been to Preston RO previously (to copy 'lunatic asylum' records) but my ticket expired last year, so I'll be sure to take additional forms of ID. (Always poses a problem as I don't drive or go abroad, and I have 'paperless billing' for utilities ... but my OAP travel pass usually suffices!)

A quick search of the I.O.Man records hasn't resulted in a likely Ethel Kelly marriage or burial ... so yes, hopefully the Wills (and Amy's marriage cert) will shed some light.

[Blue70]

Hi ZED

We share the same ancestor then in Catherine Lawrence who married twice. First to John Cropper 1747 at St Nicholas, Liverpool. Secondly to Thomas Anderton in 1760 at St Mary, Walton. I have Catherine's parents as Thomas Lawrence and Christian Martin. Christian Lawrence was in Fazakerley on the RC 1767 Census. The marriage record for Christopher has his wife as Ellen Shord rather than Ford this surname does exist so I would go with Shord rather than Ford.





Blue

[Hilary]

You will need something with your name and address on so bus pass won't do it'll get you there on the X2! This is the list they suggest

driving licence
credit/debit card accompanied by a bank statement
utility bill
other official communication with your address printed

They may just renew your card for you but it'd be best to take something with you just in case, bank statement, pensions info!

You can take photos of things but there is a daily £5 fee.

[ZED]

OK, thanks very much Hilary. It's good to know the procedure.

(Yes, isn't it wonderful to be able to travel by bus from Southport to Preston with a travel pass ... one of the benefits of being a bit 'long in the tooth' (probably the only benefit, in fact!)

Actually, I'm beginning to wonder whether my enquiries about Ethel may reveal a family secret!
It seems odd that Amy Anderton's father obtained probate after she had passed away - rather than her husband (who I'd have assumed was her next of kin?) Especially odd as her father would have had to travel all the way from the I.O.Man to the probate court in Liverpool - whereas her husband was actually living in Liverpool at the time.
Strange too that her address at the time of death is given as 'Stonebridge Farm' ... the Andertons owned Stonebridge Farm, and Amy had grown up there; but she moved out after her marriage, and by the time of the 1901 census (ie: the last census before she died) she was living at 24 Ridley Road with her husband and eldest daughter. (One of Amy's brothers remained at the farm, whilst most of the others re-located to the I.O.Man).
At the 1911 census (ie: one year after Amy's death) her husband and both daughters were living with Amy's mother-in-law in Chester Rd ... ie: there is nothing to suggest that her hubby and children had ever lived at Stonebridge Farm.
Sorry ... I'm rambling a bit there!

[Hilary]

The person listed on the probate index as the person who was granted probate would have been an executor named in the will. In other words the executor/executors would have been chosen by the person who was making the will. In this case Amy chose her father as an executor of her will.

The next of kin of someone will only be the executor of the will if the person who makes the will names them. If there was no will made it is then most usual for a family member who may or may not have been the next of kin will apply to administer the estate. However I have seen the person owed a lot of money by the deceased apply to administer the estate.

[ZED]

Thanks Hilary ... interesting info.

[ZED]

Sent an email to Lancs Record Office to ask whether they had the 1910 and 1955 Wills there. They responded very quickly with the following message ... I thought I'd post it here in case anyone else requires similar information:
Wills for old Lancashire up to 1858 are kept here at Lancashire Archives. From 1858, probate was administered by the state rather than by church courts and all wills proved in England & Wales from this date are held by the same office:
Leeds District Probate Registry
York House
York Place
Leeds
LS1 2BA
Tel: 0113 389 6133
Fax: 0113 247 1893
Email: leedsdprenquiries@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk
Web: http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probat ... ants-wills