Keating family tree

[AllanKeating]

That's an interesting story about Jack Keating and all the other stuff but I am sure this is not my relative.
I can recall my father Gerard Keating born March 1924 and died in December 1986, telling me that his father (the John Keating I am trying to find a birth certificate for) dropped dead on his way home from work which was at that time a manual labour job. He told me that his father died when my father was only young. At that time they lived in 16 Deakin Street, Birkenhead. My grandfather died at age 45 in 1929 and so his birth date is either late 1884 or 1885. I thought I had identified a birth certificate but the problem is that it says that his father's name was Patrick on that certificate Liverpool 8b 42 whereas the marriage certificate in 1909 when he was aged 24 says that his father's name was John. But the music hall manager and much of the other details don't tie in with the documents I have.

[Bertieone]

Allan,

The last posting, Jack Keating, Music Hall manager, was so he could be dismissed, hence the reason for mentioning he married Mary Callaghan.

If you are considering the John Keating, aged 26, Postman, Jenkinson St, 1911 as a possible.
The 1881, Rg11 P3632 F121 Page17 and 1891, RG12 P2907 F113 Page10 must be taken into consideration.

Allowances also have to be made for ages not being recorded correctly, mistakenly or purposely, for example, an older partner wishing to appear of similar age to their younger intended spouse. A person recording a death may only be in a position to guess the deceased age. Mistakes by Enumerators, Etc.

[AllanKeating]

OK Sorry I misunderstood your information on the Music Hall Manager, it was interesting though and an insight into the sort of relationships which surviving spouses and mothers had to enter into. I know my own Grandmother (Mary Keating nee Flanagan) left with several children when John Keating died at 45 had to re-marry someone called Blythe who I understand from my father was not liked at all by the children and the elder brother apparently eventually threw him out!!
Also yes I do appreciate the danger of a lack of honesty with ages as my own mother was five years older than my dad but she was always very cagey about her age and we only found out for definite when she passed away. I don't think my dad knew when they married. Something I never knew throughout my home life (I was told later by one of my brothers when Dad confided in him once after a few pints) that my mum had been pregnant when they married but lost the baby. Naughty mum but we loved her anyway!!

Perhaps you can give me some general advice now to follow up on your references. I really have no idea how to find the information you point out for 1881 and 1891 by using those references. I am registered with ancestry.co.uk but I'm not sure which boxes to put the information in. Or is there some better (preferably free) source that I should use.

[Bertieone]

Hi Allan,

For now the following links should take you to the relevant census, if you're signed in to Ancestry,

1881,
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss ... h=26668928

1891,
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss ... h=25264534

[Bertieone]

The 1911 census Karen posted, as transcribed by Anc.

John Reating 26
Mary Reating 23
Mary Alice Reating 10/12
Mary Ellen Lowner 56
Jenkinson St,
RG14 P22547.

It is of course Keating, Mary Alice Keating, born 1910 Birkenhead and died 1919, Birkenhead.
If her birth cert has Mary Flanagan as the mother, you would then know this is the correct family, 1909 marriage.

Mary A Keating, 1910
Birkenhead, 8a 442

[MaryA]

For now use the links Bert has given. For future it is as well to know how to use the references as the information is often given but people will spell a name as they know it should be rather than how it has been transcribed and so others won't find it.

There are quicker methods but not knowing how your home page is arranged the following method should be easy to follow

Ancestry - Home page
Search - Census & Electoral Rolls
Right column - choose which census collection you require - eg 1881 UK Census Collection
Scroll down to "Included Data Collections"
Choose for example - 1881 Engand Census
Choose "Show Advanced" and scroll down
RG11 refers to the 1881 census so as we have gone straight to there, we can ignore entering it.
Enter into the appropriate boxes - P = Piece 3632, F = Folio 121 and Page 17

This will bring up a list of names on this page. You may have made it easier by entering either a first or surname.

[AllanKeating]

Thank you both, the Jenkinson street couple do look promising with the explanation that Mary Alice appears to have sadly died young so my dad probably never mentioned her. If she died in 1919 that was five years before his birth.
Thank you also for the links and explanations on the use of the ancestry site.
I won't get around to looking at them for a few days as I have to have an operation on both hands tomorrow and I'm not sure when I will be able to type again.
But like Arnie, I'll be back.

[MaryA]

Good look with the ops, hope all goes well.

[Bertieone]

Yes, Good luck.

If its accepted the 1909 marriage and the 1911 Jenkinson St census go hand in hand
I think John Keating's Fathers details on the marriage cert are actually those of his Grandfather.
If he was the illegitimate son of Mary Ellen Keating and didn't know who his father was, he would have used his Grandfather's details to save embarrassment. Even though Mary Ellen Keating later married Henry Lowman, it doesn't appear John ever used the Lowman name.
Mary Ellen Lowman is recorded as Mother in Law, 1911, probably because Mary Keating/Flanagan has filled in or given the details.

Any birth certificate/Registration is likely to be 1879/80, if one exists?

[AllanKeating]

Thanks for your good wishes. I have two well bandaged hands now but can type. It seems to have gone well!! I tried to access the information this morning first of all following the instructions MaryA gave me but it is clear that my version of Ancestry.co.uk is different. I noticed that it said something about my forms being new forms but offered me the chance to use the old forms so I did. That was the first time I saw a button saying Use Advanced but pressing that still didn't have any boxes for Piece or pa.ge number or anything like that and there are no buttons to bring them up.
So I tried the hyperlinks and both of those just come up with an ancestry.co.uk message saying those pages are no longer available. However, I guess there are some documents I can order now based on this information and your suggestions, like a birth certificate for Mary Ellen Lowman. I will do that.
It does seem a plausible explanation that Mary Ellen is his mother but that he was illegitimate. So I will follow those leads up. Thanks again.

[Bertieone]

The links should work if you subscribe to Anc and are logged in, try putting the census reference number in the Keyword box, also a name and other known details in the usual search boxes.

1881, Mansfield St, Liverpool


1891, Cheapside, Liverpool,

[MaryA]

I have looked at my instructions again and highlighted a couple of lines that you may have skipped. If you just hit the Use Advanced Button without choosing a specific data collection, then the folio/piece entries won't be there. That's all I can think of.

Glad all went well with the ops.

[AllanKeating]

Thanks for the additional tips on using the forms. I'll try that just to get to know how to use them better but I have been able to locate the records anyway using the information you gave me and I extracted it all to try to follow a reliable chain.
This was my conclusion.
Following a trail through all the census information you have unearthed for me there are inconsistencies that I can't understand.

On the marriage certificate I have for 1909 when John Keating (my grandfather) was 24 his father is listed as John Keating a Painter (Journeyman).
It seems this could be his grandfather and that fits in with the 1871 and 1881 censuses where we have John Keating as a Painter in both cases but in neither case does it show John Keating as his son (and it would be too early anyway).

Then in the 1871 census we have Mary E. Keating birthdate around 1856 and in 1901 census Mary E. Lowman birthdate around 1856 looking like the same person.

However, in the 1881 and 1891 censuses we have Mary Loman and Mary E Lowman but the ages given would indicate a birthdate of 1861/62 so that suggests either mistakes or a different person.

Also in 1881 and 1891 we have a John Keeting / John Keathing respectively whose ages make them look like the same person but don’t tie up with my grandfather John Keating as these censuses indicate that this John Keeting/ Keathing must have been born in around 1879 whereas my grandfather I think was born in 1885 by his age at marriage and death.

There is also a John Keating in the 1901 census which could be the same Keeting/Keathing as above as his age matches too.

The first time that a John Keating crops up who seems to match my grandfather in both age and occupation is 1911. They can’t be completely unconnected because living with them at that time was a Mary Ellen Lowson (who might be Lowman/Loman) with a birthdate which matches the Mary E. Keating and Mary E Lowman in the 1871 ad 1901 censuses so that looks like the same person.

My grandfather’s address at the date of marriage 1909 is shown as Myrtle Buildings, Holly Street, Liverpool and that address has not shown up anywhere on these census records, is there any record of a John Keating in Holly Street from 1885 onwards? Also on the 1885 birth certificate for him it shows that his mother Mary Keating (formerly Hickey) was living in 21 Stanley Road. I can’t find any record in the 1881 or 1891 censuses of Mary Hickey which shows Stanley Road as an address. Is there a way of searching by street in case the name is mis-spelled? I can’t find any marriage entry for Patrick Keating and a Mary Hickey either.

The other thing is that if Mary E Keating became Mary E Lowman then it appears to have been between 1871 whe she was Keating and 1881 if she has by that time become Mary Loman (even though the birthdates don’t tally. This would mean that John Keating who was born in 1885 would not be called Keating if he is her son born after the marriage.

Any suggestions on how this information can be reconciled?

I had no idea how hard this sort of tracing could be!!

[MaryA]

Oh my word, it needs more time than I have available to go through all that, sorry for the time being but perhaps somebody else will be able to help sooner.

I just wanted to post that if you were to use Findmypast.co.uk even without being logged in you can choose from the top row menu Search > Census, Land & Surveys.

Once this menu opens up you can enter in the "Where" I would suggest putting Lancashire rather than Liverpool as sometimes places are known as Kirkdale/Bootle etc. so use a wide search. Then in the "Street" just put the first part - ie Stanley, leaving out the Road as it may have been listed as Rd.

This search will bring up a list of entries in all years of the censuses, so scroll through till you come to an entry in the year that interests you, you will probably find one under Bootle, and take a note of the name and year of birth. You can use this information to search in Ancestry to find the entry and then scroll through the images to find the correct house number.

[Bertieone]

1881,
RG11 P3601 F9 Page12

21 Stanley Rd
Patrick Keating 33 Ireland, Seaman
Mary Keating 25 Ireland, Wife
Margaret Murray 14 Servant

To search Holly St, 1901&1911,

Anton Walberg, Born 1856, Sweden.

[Bertieone]

1861 census, RG9 P2671 F17 Page27
Dale St,



Note that John is a Painter and wife Mary was born India, Mary E born 1855, I always feel were children are concerned, the nearer the birth, the more accurate the census information is. Reason being, usually its the parents giving the information.

[AllanKeating]

I hadn't seen this when I sent my last post but its clearly the same John Keating featured in a number of later posts and in particular the Mary Keating born in India again.

I suppose its possible that this John Keating is the father of my grandfather John but he would have been 50 approx in 1885. Not impossible for a man but probably there is someone in the middle. It could be this Mary E Keating but the trail is difficult to follow with the confusion over Mary E. Keating becoming Mary E Lowman prior to 1885 (if indeed that is what happened). I suppose it could just be that Mary E. Keating had left the family before John was born.
I guess I need to try and find a marriage certificate for Mary E. Lowman to see if she is previously Mary E Keating (I may have tried this already and failed, its so hard to remember) but I will try. Thanks

[Bertieone]

This is likely to be the marriage, keep in mind not everything was recorded correctly or transcribed correctly.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNS4-1TR

[AllanKeating]

Yes that is clearly it so the marriage was in 1880 and she was therefore by 1885 called Lowman so if my grandfather was born in 1884/85 and gave his father as John Keating then Mary Lowman can't be his mother ruling out the possible explanation of him being her illegitimate child. So either the old John Keating (Painter) is his father at a late age or there is someone else who is a missing link. I suppose it could just be that he moved in with the old John Keating as an orphan or other relative with a deceased mother or something and so he called him "father".

[AllanKeating]

Another thought is that old John Keating is down as a painter but the John Keating named as the father is down as a journeyman painter. This may be nothing but I understand that a journeyman was a trades.man who had served his time but was not a "master" of the guild and that they often travelled around to get experience of different types of work to reach their master status. Maybe that implies that his father was absent somewhere or that John the younger was born elsewhere.