Thorn's Temperence Hotel - Tithebarn St.

[Graeme]

Hello Friends and Experts:

This request may be a bit of a stretch for a genealogy forum, but it's related to a gap my family's history so I'll take a chance. I am seeking any information, especially business or legal records pertaining to Thorn's Temperence Hotel and Cafe, a family business that was at 60-62 Tithebarn St. (corner of Cunliffe), Liverpool. In the 1910's my G-Grandfather Herbert Ambrose Thorn (formerly Murrell, but that's a different topic) was the proprietor and he lived on the premises with his family (1911 Census). There were also two satellite Thorn's Tea and Dining Room locations nearby; one was a stone's throw away on the corner of Vernon, while the location of the other one is sadly lost to posterity. My grandparents eventually took over the business. I would like to know more of the history of Thorn's, including the years these businesses were in operation, what became of them, when the building at 60-62 Tithebarn St. was sold and ultimately demolished etc.

I have managed to find a couple of old photographs of the Thorn businesses as well as a reference to another photograph in the Archives of the Liverpool Record Office, but that particular image is apparently not available for viewing online. The reference number is 352 ENG/2/4100; title: Old Buildings Tithebarn St.; Date: 16/03/1923 ; Description: A view of Tithebarn Street. Herbert Thorn's Temperance Hotel is on the corner of Cunliffe Street on the left. To the right of this are shop fronts, some of which appear to be boarded up. There are two men wearing full length aprons stood on the street corner opposite the photographer. A man with a bicycle is stood next to a lamppost on the right.

At some point the business was sold and the building later demolished (there is a small car park where 60-62 once stood), but I do not know when either of these events occurred. My grandmother used to say (with anger in her voice) that they were forced to sell for a pittance as the result of a compulsory purchase order because the road was supposed to be widened but then it never was. I suspect that is more legend than truth (perhaps they simply went bust and she was ashamed of the fact?).

Thanking everyone in advance..

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)
.

[Karen]

I notice that this previous thread makes reference to the Thorn family:

http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... =2&t=12587

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

The link Karen has given leads to one of Dickiesam's posts, I wonder if he might have any good information since then.

352 ENG/2/4100; title: Old Buildings Tithebarn St.; Date: 16/03/1923 ; Description: A view of Tithebarn Street. Herbert Thorn's Temperance Hotel is on the corner of Cunliffe Street on the left.

Does this mean you haven't managed to view this photograph?

I wonder if there might be mention of the selling of the property in the local newspapers, even a for sale advertisement but to check that we would need an exact date.

[Karen]

This is from the Liverpool Post & Mercury, Monday 15th October, 1917.

[Graeme]

Hi and welcome to the forum.
Thanks Mary

The link Karen has given leads to one of Dickiesam's posts, I wonder if he might have any good information since then.
Yes, that post is about the same family. Herbert Thorn was widowed in 1938 and married Gertrude Stackhouse (nee Wilding) in 1942. She previously worked for him in the business and was present in 1911 census for 60 Tithebarn St.

Does this mean you haven't managed to view this photograph? Unfortunately no, not yet.

I wonder if there might be mention of the selling of the property in the local newspapers, even a for sale advertisement but to check that we would need an exact date. I've done a few newspaper searches, although not recently. Without the date particulars I came up empty. From what I was told by my father and grandmother, Thorn's Cafe may have been in operation at least through the 1950's and possibly early 1960's. Not so sure about the Hotel and Tea Rooms though.

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

[Graeme]

This is from the Liverpool Post & Mercury, Monday 15th October, 1917.

Thank you Karen; this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to find.

1917? That's interesting; I wonder what caused him to publish this notice? Someone fraudulently signing his name perhaps. Based on the description of the old archive photo I mentioned, Thorn's Temperance Hotel was apparently still there in 1923. My grandparents were married in 1927 and the announcement in the local paper said that after their honeymoon they 'will reside at their business premises at No. 60 Tithebarn St., Liverpool.' although it wasn't mentioned by name (i.e. hotel or cafe).

I was born in the 1950's and visited the cafe at least once as a child. It was very traumatic. While passing through the kitchen I threw something into a big sink and it got stuck in the disposal. As a staff member was fishing it out (apparently with her fingers) I almost flipped a big red switch that would have activated the disposal, but thankfully somebody pulled me away just in time. Later they had me watch as a big carrot was sliced to bits and told me it could have been that lady's arm. The point is that at least part of the business was still in operation during my lifetime.

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

[retiringtype]

the location of the other one is sadly lost to posterity.

Looking in the phone books, Herbert Thorn had a catering business at 18 Goree Piazzas through the 1920's. This is listed under his name in addition to the restaurant at 60 Tithebarn Street.

There are ads in the Echo in May 1918 seeking staff for Thorn's Dining Rooms at 18 Goree Piazzas (foot of James Street).

[dickiesam]

By MaryA

The link Karen has given leads to one of Dickiesam's posts, I wonder if he might have any good information since then.

The Thorn reference in my post was given by Hilary....

Forgot to say there's a Mabel Stackhouse mother's maiden name Wilding born in 1914.
From the Probate Index:
Henrbert Ambrose Thorn of 3 St Anthony's Road Blundellsands died 1 jan 1950 probate to Gertrude Thorn widow and Rosa Shone wife of Leonard Shone. Effects £41,125 0s 6d.

Should have said Herbert born 1872 from death index and this ties with the one in 1911 and he has a daughter Rosa. I wonder what his will said!!!!
Hilary

I was chasing the Stackhouse family at the time and the chase was brought to a reasonably satisfactory conclusion, apart from a few mysteries that will have to remain mysteries. The truth is still out there!

[Blue70]

You said you have 2 photos and are looking for a third can you describe the two photos you have? I'm aware of there being three photos, 2 of Thorn's at 60/62 Tithebarn Street and 1 of 46 Tithebarn Street.


Blue

[MaryA]

The missing photograph is on order for me to scan tomorrow morning.

[Blue70]

The missing photograph is on order for me to scan tomorrow morning.

Hi Mary

I'll look forward to seeing it as I'm confused by the description mentioning a bicycle. I can't see one on any of the three photos I've seen.


Blue

[Graeme]

You said you have 2 photos and are looking for a third can you describe the two photos you have? I'm aware of there being three photos, 2 of Thorn's at 60/62 Tithebarn Street and 1 of 46 Tithebarn Street.

Blue

I don't have them under my nose at the moment but I'll describe them from memory...

The first is an oblique view of the building that appears to have been taken from diagonally across the road. The Thorn's Temperence Hotel sign is visible on the second storey with "Café" above the main entrance on the corner. H. Thorn appears along the Tithebarn St.side flanked by 60 and 62. There is also a Capstan advert attached to the Cunliffe side of the building; the street sign can also be seen but is illegible.

The second photo is facing the other way and is a general view southwest I think along Tithebarn St. On the left is a horse and cart and Thorn's Tea and Dining room can be seen on the corner - I believe it's Vernon but the address could indeed be 46 Tithebarn St. A tall industrial chimney rises above the rooftops and famously there is a flock of sheep being herded down the middle of the road. I suspect this is a well-known image for historians (and genealogists); I have seen it on more than one website dedicated to old photographs of Liverpool.

Do these match any of the photos you mentioned?

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

[Graeme]

The missing photograph is on order for me to scan tomorrow morning.

Wow, Thank you very much Mary! I look forward to seeing it.

[Graeme]

the location of the other one is sadly lost to posterity.

Looking in the phone books, Herbert Thorn had a catering business at 18 Goree Piazzas through the 1920's. This is listed under his name in addition to the restaurant at 60 Tithebarn Street.

There are ads in the Echo in May 1918 seeking staff for Thorn's Dining Rooms at 18 Goree Piazzas (foot of James Street).

Thank You. It never even occurred to me to research old phone books; what a great idea! Are these available online?

Thanks also for finding the adverts in the Echo. I'm sure I tried searching their archives a couple of years ago, but didn't find anything. Perhaps I was being too specific in my queries or I was looking more recently for any mention of the business closing down. I'll have another look this week...


Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

[retiringtype]

Ancestry has the historic UK phone books. Also check out the British newspaper archive database britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ which is also available via FindmyPast

[Graeme]

By MaryA

The link Karen has given leads to one of Dickiesam's posts, I wonder if he might have any good information since then.

The Thorn reference in my post was given by Hilary....

Should have said Herbert born 1872 from death index and this ties with the one in 1911 and he has a daughter Rosa. I wonder what his will said!!!!
Hilary

I've been curious about Herbert's will myself. I'm ordering a copy and will share the particulars (via PM) with anyone interested.

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

[Graeme]

Ancestry has the historic UK phone books. Also check out the British newspaper archive database britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ which is also available via FindmyPast

Interesting. I have an Ancestry membership but don't recall seeing any old phone books on the site - mind you they do have a lot of information. In addition to my present search, I'm sure that newspaper archive link will be very useful for finding BMD notices. Thanks again

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

[Blue70]

You said you have 2 photos and are looking for a third can you describe the two photos you have? I'm aware of there being three photos, 2 of Thorn's at 60/62 Tithebarn Street and 1 of 46 Tithebarn Street.

Blue

I don't have them under my nose at the moment but I'll describe them from memory...

The first is an oblique view of the building that appears to have been taken from diagonally across the road. The Thorn's Temperence Hotel sign is visible on the second storey with "Café" above the main entrance on the corner. H. Thorn appears along the Tithebarn St.side flanked by 60 and 62. There is also a Capstan advert attached to the Cunliffe side of the building; the street sign can also be seen but is illegible.

The second photo is facing the other way and is a general view southwest I think along Tithebarn St. On the left is a horse and cart and Thorn's Tea and Dining room can be seen on the corner - I believe it's Vernon but the address could indeed be 46 Tithebarn St. A tall industrial chimney rises above the rooftops and famously there is a flock of sheep being herded down the middle of the road. I suspect this is a well-known image for historians (and genealogists); I have seen it on more than one website dedicated to old photographs of Liverpool.

Do these match any of the photos you mentioned?

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

The sheep one is definitely one of these three. Here are descriptions of those I've seen:-

1. Thorn's at 46 Tithebarn Street 1915 (sheep)
2. Thorn's at 60 & 62 Tithebarn Street 1923 (Left to right Thorn's in distance, Cunliffe Street to Vernon Street block including Vernon Street sign)
3. Thorn's at 60 & 62 Tithebarn Street (no year - close up includes Cadburys advert on first and second floors of Cunliffe Street side)


Blue

[Blue70]

Ancestry has the historic UK phone books. Also check out the British newspaper archive database britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ which is also available via FindmyPast

Interesting. I have an Ancestry membership but don't recall seeing any old phone books on the site - mind you they do have a lot of information. In addition to my present search, I'm sure that newspaper archive link will be very useful for finding BMD notices. Thanks again

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)

Just in case you haven't found them on Ancestry you'll find the 18 Goree Piazzas entry in Kelly's Directory 1938, 46 Tithebarn Street in Gore's Directory 1911 and 60/62 Tithebarn Street entries in Gore's Directory 1911 and Kelly's Directory 1938. Latest entry in Ancestry Phone Books I can find under Herbert Thorn is 1950 it has Herbert Thorn 60 Tithebarn Street L2. Mrs Gertrude Thorn is listed at 3 St Anthony's Road L23 Great Crosby in 1950. Latest entry under Thorn at 60 Tithebarn Street I can find is in 1960. Not listed in 1964.


Blue

[Graeme]

The sheep one is definitely one of these three. Here are descriptions of those I've seen:-

1. Thorn's at 46 Tithebarn Street 1915 (sheep)
2. Thorn's at 60 & 62 Tithebarn Street 1923 (Left to right Thorn's in distance, Cunliffe Street to Vernon Street block including Vernon Street sign)
3. Thorn's at 60 & 62 Tithebarn Street (no year - close up includes Cadburys advert on first and second floors of Cunliffe Street side)


Blue

Based on this I, have photo #1 (sheep) and photo #3 (although the advert on the wall is in fact for Capstan). The photo I haven't yet seen was taken in 1923 and described in my first post - going by the date, perhaps this is photo #2? Patiently waiting for Mary's scan to find out!

Graeme
(New Member: number pending)