Where was Dorothea in 1871 and 1891?

[big g]

The Dorothea in question was married to William Whitford in 1859, St.Phillips Church, Liverpool, she was formerly Stewart.
1861 finds them living 30 Croston Street, with their firstborn Robert Henry aged 1.
They have four more children, all born Liverpool, three of these died in infancy.

1871 - can't find either William or Dorothea, but Robert Henry and Frank Stewart (their children) are living with William's father and his second wife at 211 Scotland Road.

1881 - Dorothea is living 15 Tillard St., Kirkdale - upholsteress - MARRIED - no husband present, Frank her son is also living here. Robert Henry is at 24 Fonthill Rd., Kirkdale.
Found William with second WIFE, in Swansea, Sarah Jane, and six children, first two born Clonmel, Co.Tiperary, Ireland - perhaps clue to where they married, if they did!

1891 - Can't find Dorothea. William and his second family are still in Swansea.

1901 - Dorothea living 5 Ethiopia St., Kirkdale - WIDOW - upholsteress.

1903 - Dorothea dies in Belmont Road Workhouse - death certificate signed by Wm.C.Briggs, Workhouse Master. (I have D.C.)

Did William and Dorothea divorce?
Did William actually marry Sarah Jane Tracey?
Could Dorothea have been in a hospital in 1871, having recently lost three of her children?

[Karen]

Did William and Dorothea divorce?

I had a look at England & Wales, Civil Divorce Records, 1858-1911 (on Anc*) but there is no record of a divorce.

I notice that there was a child baptized in 1867:
Name: Dorothea Stewart Whitford
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 14 Apr 1867
Baptism Place: Kirkdale, Lancashire, England
Father: William Whitford
Mother: Dorothea Whitford
FHL Film Number: 1545930
Reference ID: item 5 p 319

A look at the baptism register for the home address would get you an address nearer to the 1871 census.

[big g]

Thanks Karen for the baptism details, which I didn't have; will put that on my to-do list.

Forgot to mention that the first child of William and his second WIFE, was born May 1870 Clonmel, Tipparery, Ireland.

William must have left Dorothea, some time between their last child being born 1867 and 1869.

Are there Irish census records available/exist?

G

[dickiesam]

Thanks Karen for the baptism details, which I didn't have; will put that on my to-do list.

Forgot to mention that the first child of William and his second WIFE, was born May 1870 Clonmel, Tipparery, Ireland.

William must have left Dorothea, some time between their last child being born 1867 and 1869.

Are there Irish census records available/exist?

G

I would suggest that William and his second 'wife' did not marry because he did not divorce Dorothea. Divorce was extremely expensive and quite a complicated procedure back then and the province of the well-off. The case would be heard in London with representation probably by London lawyers. In addition, if either party was RC then a divorce would usually be out of the question. In those circumstances a marriage might take place after the death of the spouse.

The only surviving complete censuses are the 1901 and 1911. There are fragments of some earlier censuses. http://www.genealogy.nationalarchives.ie/

Civil BMD registration began in Ireland in 1864. There are parish records available but coverage is far from complete. FamilySearch https://www.familysearch.org/ is a good place to look for BMDs etc.

And the 'good news' is that photocopies of Irish BMD certs are available for about £3.25 and can be emailed to you.

For help post details, event and names etc, under Other areas.

[dickiesam]

Is this the child born in 1870 in Clonmel?

Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881
Birth: Elizabeth Ellen Whitford
Date: 20 May 1870
Place: CLONMEL, TIPP, IRE
Father: William Whitford
Mother: Sara Jane Tracey

And another child...
William Whitford
Christening Date: 27 May 1872
Christening Place: CLONMEL, TIPP, IRE
Father's Name: William Whitford
Mother's Name: Sarah Jane Tracey

[dickiesam]

Could Dorothea have been in a hospital in 1871, having recently lost three of her children?

Forgot to comment... I think her absence from the 1871 England/Wales census is possibly because she had been 'abandoned' in Ireland when William set up with Sara Tracey.

Had she been in hospital in England or Wales she would still have been enumerated as a patient/inmate.

William and Sara were still in Ireland in 1871 because the son William was born in 1872.

[big g]

dickiesam,

Thank you for the information on divorce in those times.

Yes, those two children were the ones I referred to.

As I can't find census for either William or Dorothea, but have for their two children, Robert and Frank, who were living with their paternal grandpa and his second wife in Kirkdale, could they have left their children and gone to Ireland????

Robert died 1899 in Surrey, Frank was still alive in 1903 when his ma died; both these sons moved away from Liverpool some time after the 1891 census.....how sad for Dorothea that she ended up in the workhouse.

[dickiesam]

The difficulties relating to divorce for the less-than-wealthy classes did not change until 1928 following an Act of Parliament.

William and Dorothea had married in St Philip's Church, Liverpool, which was I believe C of E. That rules out the RC as being a factor in no divorce. According to the 1861 census William's occupation was Watch finisher, someone who assembled time pieces but did not actually make the parts. It is possible that he went to Ireland to work around 1867/8, taking Dorothea with him but leaving the children behind until the couple had settled into their new life. But then he met Sarah who became pregnant and perhaps Dorothea walked out?

'Living over the brush' was quite common given the difficulty in getting a divorce. It happened at least twice in my family. A paternal g.g.father married in Ireland in 1854 and left to live with another woman about 1860 with whom he had 7 children. He didn't marry my g.g.mother until 1885 following the death of his legal spouse. My maternal grandfather was deserted by his wife and mother of their 4 children in 1904. She took a daughter with her but left 2 sons and a baby behind. Grandad 'took in' a woman to look after the 3 children and he and she had my mother. They eventually married in 1926 soon after the death of his legal spouse.

You mentioned that Dorothea died 'in the workhouse'. Remember it is quite possible she actually died in the Infirmary attached to the workhouse and having the same address. Those infirmaries were the Victorians' NHS hospitals of the time providing treatment to those who could not pay for admission to a private hospital.

[Karen]

According to the 1861 census William's occupation was Watch finisher, someone who assembled time pieces but did not actually make the parts.

The World Museum, Liverpool, has a horology database that lists William:

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/wml/ ... de=&page=0

Name: Whitford William
Date: 1861
Town: Liverpool
Street: 38 Croston Street
Town: Liverpool
Trade: Watchmaker + finisher

Additional Information:
Information St Philips (Hardman Street, Liverpool) - married Dorothea Stewart 2/2/1859. * St Peters (Liverpool) - Robert Henry born 19/12/1859 baptised 22/1/1860. * St Marys (Kirkdale, Liverpool) - Ellen baptised 6/10/1861. Dorothea Stewart baptised 14/4/1867. * 1861 census - watch finisher aged 22 of 38 Croston Street. Ellen aged 22

[big g]

Morning,
Dickiesam,

Very interesting about your ancestors!!

I searched via the links you gave to no avail; also searched for a marriage, in all counties, after 1903, when Dorothea died - nothing.

I had found Sarah Jane's parents in 1841 living Heath St., Toxteth Park; her parents John and Mary, and her sister Ann, all born Ireland. Under John's occupation is "police".

Also found 1861 Athol Street, Scotland Road, Sarah Jane (born Kingston Upon Hull, Yorkshire) and her parents, also detailed three step children of John's? Stephen, Mary Ann and Jane Scott..................annoyingly the census page was damaged and neither their ages or place of birth are available .............................but the fact that Sarah Jane was living Liverpool now points to the fact that she could have met William in Liverpool!!! John is now a mercantile clerk.

Cannot find 1851 for John/Mary/Ann/Sarah Jane, but will battle on - the surname is spelt a variety of ways. grhh.

Karen,

Thanks for the link to Liverpool World Museum.

Thank you both for your interest and help in pointing me in directions I hadn't gone down!!

[Hilary]

The Scott children were Mary Ann's children. John married Mary Ann Scott maiden name Smith in 1861 at St Nichola church Liverpool. If anyone else looks for the Tracey family they are listed as Treacy in 1861 on Ancestry. The birth place for Sarah Jane is missing.

[big g]

Hilary,

Wonderful, thanks so much for finding that information for me; now accumulating quite a lot of info on Sarah Jane's family!

G