My brick wall - Joseph Gray

[2MorroW]

Joseph Gray, g/grandfather, merchant seaman. All documentation, 1871 census onwards, crew lists etc he gives L`pool as place of birth. approx 1857. Birth not registered, nor baptism found on line or search at L`p R.O. Same story for his sister Catherine b about 1859/60. Youngest brother, William birth cert 1865 states parents James Gray/Mary Grimely from Ireland. Marriage of a James Henry Gray & Mary Cromley found for 1864. James dead by 1868, Mary remarries, all 3 children in 1871 census in Fulton not Sutton (transcription error) household.
All known avenues researched. Suggestions please.
Joseph`s baptism
How to find James Gray - area/country of birth unknown.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Could you please give us the full details from the 1871 census, including reference, and have you managed to get the certificate of the Irish marriage or just the index as yet? Where was William born? Who did Joseph marry and do you have his certificate?

[Tina]

Welcome. For the peeps Lancs BMD have a marriage at St Peter's 1868 Dec qtr (FMBD) Mary Gray/Grumley to Wm Fulton.

[MaryA]

For the crew
RG10; Piece: 3765; Folio: 21; Page: 36
11 Steel Street, St Martin, Liverpool
William Fulton Head M 28 Stoker Scotland
Mary Wife M 32 Ireland
Joseph Gray Stepson 13 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire
Catherine " Stepdaur 10 Scholar " "
Laurence Fulton Father Wid 51 Seaman Unemployed Scotland
Margret 13 Liverpool, Lancashire
Laurence 12 " "
Mary Davis Relative Unm 42 Dress maker Denbighshire
William Gray stepson 6 Liverpool

I wonder if you have the image of Mary's marriage to William Fulton to help with her maiden name from her father's. Instructions to show a picture in your message here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =16&t=9817

[MaryA]

This may be William's baptism
Born 18 March 1865 baptised 20 October, 1865 at Holy Cross Church
William Grey son of James and Mary GREY (maiden name Crummy)
Godparents Robert and Bridget Sheeran

[MaryA]

Marriage of a James Henry Gray & Mary Cromley found for 1864.

I feel you have to get the details from this marriage, it would seem to me that Mary was previously married and the two older children may have been born to a previous husband.

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1864 Q3
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
GREY James H CONNLEY Mary Liverpool, St. Peter Liverpool 2122LP/47/136

[Bertieone]

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNSS-84R

[2MorroW]

This may be William's baptism
Born 18 March 1865 baptised 20 October, 1865 at Holy Cross Church
William Grey son of James and Mary GREY (maiden name Crummy)
Godparents Robert and Bridget Sheeran

Thank you. I have this on file - another possible variation of the Cromley/Grimley name?

[2MorroW]

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNSS-84R

Thank you Bert. I have the cert.

[2MorroW]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Could you please give us the full details from the 1871 census, including reference, and have you managed to get the certificate of the Irish marriage or just the index as yet? Where was William born? Who did Joseph marry and do you have his certificate?

I`m new to forum communication and thank you all for your help. First time with photobucket: please let me know if the image of the marriage cert of William Fulton is visible. Thank you.
Details in case it isn`t. Married on the 14th Sept. 1864 at The Parish Church (St Peter`s I assume)and just to add to the name confusion, James GRUMLEY is given as father of Mary Gray, widow, full age of Steele St.

William Gray was born 15.3.1856 at 4 Court Vauxhall Rd. Lp. James Gray, seaman & Mary Grimley
Mary states on census she is Irish born - no other details known. James her father not found on census, yet too many variables to be sure.

Joseph (1857)married in L`p. Ann Jane Moran Feb. 1884 (of Michael & Jane). Joseph`s father confirmed as James Henry on the cert.

Thank you for your help.
Sue

[MaryA]

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1864 Q3
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
GREY James H CONNLEY Mary Liverpool, St. Peter Liverpool 2122LP/47/136

I think this marriage certificate could be crucial, if it confirms the same father as the other one, and particularly in view of the date which is after the birth of the first two children.

If you don't have it, let us know and when I next am at the RO I can get a copy.

I'm thinking that he may have been the father even though the children were born before the marriage, but they probably would have had to be registered in the mother's name.

I`m new to forum communication and thank you all for your help.

PS you're doing fine

[2MorroW]

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1864 Q3
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
GREY James H CONNLEY Mary Liverpool, St. Peter Liverpool 2122LP/47/136

I think this marriage certificate could be crucial, if it confirms the same father as the other one, and particularly in view of the date which is after the birth of the first two children.

If you don't have it, let us know and when I next am at the RO I can get a copy.

I'm thinking that he may have been the father even though the children were born before the marriage, but they probably would have had to be registered in the mother's name.

I`m new to forum communication and thank you all for your help.

PS you're doing fine

Mary, I have the marriage cert for James H Gray & Mary Cromley -14th Sept. 1864. The witnesses Manning & Stanton married 1866 and Catherine Manning is witness to Mary`s second marriage 1868. Another pointer I believe to them being the same folk despite the varying spellings of Mary`s surname.

I`ll now search again for Joseph & Catherine under the variations of Cromley
etc.




Sue

[MaryA]

The father's occupation is what I was interested in, seems a clincher that it is the same person.

I`ll now search again for Joseph & Catherine under the variations of Cromley
etc.

That is going to be difficult, I have already had a check through the baptisms on a similar search - without success, but I feel they should be there somewhere, Cromley/Grimley/Grumley/Crummy make for a lot of variants, but I was mainly searching for the mother's name being one of those as she may well have been previously married, just not owned up to it in the documents we have to hand.

Athol Street - worth checking around 1861.

[simone]

Hi

Had a look at Athol St in 1861... nothing jumping out there

Simone x

[MaryA]

Had a look at Athol St in 1861... nothing jumping out there

Me too, in fact looked at all Marys born about the right date, Ireland, living in Liverpool - still nothing jumped, but glad to have you on the case Simone, you seem to have a great intuition for looking in places others don't think of.

[simone]

Toughie this one Mary I'll have another look later this evening though.. we like a challenge don't we but this may be one too far

Simone x

[MaryA]

we like a challenge don't we but this may be one too far

We do indeed but you are right, it is a toughie

[simone]

Do you have this entry for 1881
I was looking for young Margaret Fulton who is 13 on the 1871 census, found this one in 1881, but this one is married, however she is with the Grey family

Gore St 6 Court 8 House
Piece 3637 Folio:41 Page Number:21

Alice Grey 54 wife marr b Liverpool charwoman
Margaret Fulton 26 daughter married b Liverpool
James Mc Mayon son 20 bottler
Thomas Grey 13 son
Alice Fulton 6 gdaur
James Fulton gson
all born Liverpool

[simone]

I'm posting this here as I go along so I don't lose it... realise it may be coincidental, but what a coincidence anyway hoping it'll lead back somewhere

1871 28 Jordan St, Liverpool
3778 76 17
Alice Gray 42 b St Helens, charwoman
John Gray 21 soda water bottler, b Liverpool
Margaret Gray 17 rope spinner, b Liverpool
James Gray 9 scholar b Liverpool
Thomas Gray 3 scholar b Liverpool

1861
2679 46 17
Jordan St

Alice Gray 35 b St Helens, mangler
John Gray 12
Margaret Gray 7
Cathe Rodgers 60 lodger

1851
Hardwick St Liverpool
Alice Grac 24 house servant b St Helens
[Alice Gray]
with the Ringland family

[simone]

1891
2925 63 63
6 Court 8 Gore Street
John Fulton 36 FIREMAN
Margaret Fulton 34
Alice Fulton 15
James Fulton 10
Margaret Fulton 8
Bridget Fulton 5
Mary E Fulton 1
Patrick Ragan 28 FIREMAN
Alice Gray 60 b St Helens

William Fulton was a Fireman wasn't he..

so wonder if these families known each other for a while..
Could Alice have had a husband James?