Birth of John Robert Wilson

[mr a morris]

Hi All,
I am still having trouble regarding a birth, I got in touch with the 1939 register, who gave me the birth date of the person I was looking for, John Robert Wilson, 12/05/1872. I then got in touch with the GRO Lancashire and paid to have a search for a birth, they checked from 1871 to 1876, to no avail, any ideas of what I could try now would be much appreciated.
Regards Mr A Morris 8495

[MaryA]

I then got in touch with the GRO Lancashire and paid to have a search for a birth,

Do you mean in Southport? I hope they will have refunded your money if they didn't find the registration.

It may be that he was registered under another name. Please give details of the early entries that you have him on - ie the 1881 census perhaps.

[MaryA]

Your previous post seems to have some connections - http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... 55&start=0 Is this the John we are interested in?

Gilbert in 1881.. Appears to have been definitely born Liverpool. Perhaps not registered? Was he baptised?

RG11 Piece: 3644 Folio: 23 Page: 39
Address: 4 Court 1 House, Southwell, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
WILSON, Gilbert Head Married 41 Gas Fitter & Brass Finisher Scotland
WILSON, Mary Wife 40 Liverpool
WILSON, William Son 13 Shop Boy (Messenger) Liverpool
WILSON, Margaret Dtr 11 Scholar Liverpool
WILSON, John Son 8 Scholar Liverpool
WILSON, Gilbert Son 4 Liverpool
JONES, Mary Mother In Law Widow 63 Not Known, Wales

[MaryA]

Bert apparently found the marriage at St Matthews Church, Toxteth Park on 13 January 1907 of
Gilbert Wilson 26 Bachelor Marine Fireman of 15 Southwell Street
Father Gilbert Wilson (deceased) Gas Fitter and
Annie Rigby 21 Spinster Sack Maker of 15 Southwell Street
Father James Rigby Labourer
Witnesses were John Robert Wilson and Mary Ellen Nugent

Checking for a marriage of John Robert Wilson with the same father I found also in St Matthews, Toxteth Park on 26 July, 1897
John Robert Wilson 20 Bachelor Labourer of 11 Guest Street
Father Gilbert Wilson, Gas Fitter to
Eliza Jane Rigby 20 Spinster Weaver of 109 Wolfe Street
Father James Rigby Labourer
Witnesses were John Morrison and Bridget Mc Nally

This would suppose that he was born nearer to 1877 than earlier, perhaps the search dates weren't wide enough.

[dickiesam]

Re:

I got in touch with the 1939 register, who gave me the birth date of the person I was looking for, John Robert Wilson, 12/05/1872

The dates of birth given in documents many years after the actual birth may not be correct. When the National Register was put together there was no requirement for proof of date of birth. I know that because when our family were listed my Dad didn't have a birth cert. I was there!

According to FreeBMD there isn't a John Robert Wilson birth registered in Liverpool, West Derby or Toxteth Register Offices between 1870 and 1880. The 'nearest' is this one...
Births Mar 1873: Wilson, John Robert - Prescott Vol: 8b Page: 606
That birth year fits with the family find in 1881...
RG11 Piece: 3644 Folio: 23 Page: 39

And it is possible the family preferred his second forename to his first...?
Births Dec 1871: Wilson, Robert John - W. Derby 8b 229
Births Jun 1876: Wilson, Robert John- Liverpool 8b 100

[MaryA]

Did you ever manage to get the birth certificate for GILBERT (born approx 1877)? Do you have Mary's maiden name? Have you discovered the marriage of his parents, Gilbert to Mary and what was her maiden name?

Although he appears to have been born in Bedlington and I wondered if they married elsewhere, it would appear that he was living in Liverpool for some considerable time before and yet I don't see a marriage for him and Mary.

If they were not married the children may have been registered in their mother's maiden name.

[dickiesam]

If they were not married the children may have been registered in their mother's maiden name.

Assuming the mother's maiden name is Jones based on there being a mother-in-law Mary Jones listed in the 1881....
Births Mar 1877: JONES, Gilbert - Liverpool 8b 195

And with the same thought in mind.....
Births Jun 1872: JONES, John Robert - Liverpool 8b 183
Births Dec 1873: JONES, John Roberts - W. Derby 8b 265

Re the above... If the mother was Mary Jones and she was not married to the father Gilbert Wilson [but was living with him as a common-law wife] she may have 'obeyed' the rule that an unmarried mother could not enter a father's name on the birth registration. It was necessary for the father to attend on the registrar in person if his name was to be on the birth certificate as father and the child was to bear his surname.

There was no such rule about having the child baptised and the priest would normally assume the parents were married, hence the later Wilson baptisms.
Al grist to the mill!

[simone]

Hi
Sorry can't remember some of info on this one..... where did you get actual date of birth from?

did you have these baptisms

Mary Jane Wilson
Baptism Date:
11 Nov 1869
Parish:Liverpool, Christ Church
Father's Name:Gilbert Wilson ..Gas Fitter
Mother's name:Mary Ellen Wilson

William James Wilson
Baptism Date:11 Nov 1869
Parish:Liverpool, Christ Church
Father's Name:Gilbert Wilson .. gas fitter
Mother's name:Mary Ellen Wilson
Reference Number:
283 CHR/2/2

May Jane Wilson
Baptism Date:19 Dec 1875
Parish:Toxteth, St James
Father's Name:Gilbert Wilson gas fitter
Mother's name:Mary Wilson

[simone]

William James Wilson - bachelor- mariner
Birth Year:
abt 1867
Age:46
Marriage Date:14 Oct 1913
Parish:Liverpool, St Nicholas
Spouse's Name:Ellen Price spinster
Father's Name:Gilbert Wilson gas fitter, deceased
Spouse Father's Name:Thomas Price smiths striker
witnesses John Robert Wilson and Elizabeth Price

Margaret Elizabeth Wilson spinster
Birth Year:
abt 1870
Age:22
Marriage Date:27 Jun 1892
Parish:Toxteth, St Matthew
Spouse's Name:Joseph Quinn
Father's Name:Gilbert Wilson deceased
Spouse Father's Name:Robert Quinn
witnesses Isaac Ball and Elizabeth Smith

[MaryA]

I wonder if there was a reasoning behind having them baptised, the first two were both on the same day and if they named the second Mary Jane some years later then perhaps the first wasn't well and died, so there may have been a hurry to have a baptism done. The later one, in 1875 was marked P, so a Private Baptism, again perhaps the child was ill.

[mr a morris]

Thank You All For The Quick Response,
Yes Mary It Is The Same Family,and Thank You Dickiesam,
I Have Both Certificates 8b 195 Gilbert and8b 606 John Robert Wilson,Not The Right Ones,and I Have The Baptisams Mentioned,But Can Not Find Births or Baptisams For Margaret John R obert or Gilbert,and Still No Luck On The Marriage of Their Parents.Thanks Again To All of You.Am 8495
ps Yes Mary I Did Get My Money Back From Southport.

[mr a morris]

Thank You Simone,
I have All That Information You Sent Me,
I Got The Date Of Birth From The 1939 Register Health & Social Care Information Centre Tel 0300 365 3664.Regards AM 8495.

[MaryA]

You haven't answer my question - do you know their mother's maiden name from ANY birth certificate of the children?

I am concurring with Dickiesam that she is Jones and would urge you to consider those births that he has mentioned in that surname.

I am looking particularly at the William James baptised November 1869 - there is indeed an entry for a William James L Jones Q4 1869 W. Derby 8b 311 It would be difficult to order this as the date we have is a baptism date and this was the same as Mary Jane, so one or the other could have been up to a couple of years older than the other.

[MaryA]

I have one last suggestion as you know John Robert's exact date of birth - ask the GRO to give you the birth certificate for John Robert JONES - with the criteria that his date of birth is 12/05/1872. They did that for me and actually telephoned to say that they had one two days out but if I wanted it, which I did, and then see who is given for the parents. If there is none on that date then a complete rethink will be needed.

[simone]

I Got The Date Of Birth From The 1939 Register Health & Social Care Information Centre Tel 0300 365 3664.Regards AM 8495.

sorry, yes you did say that initially!!

[dickiesam]

I have one last suggestion as you know John Robert's exact date of birth - ask the GRO to give you the birth certificate for John Robert JONES - with the criteria that his date of birth is 12/05/1872. They did that for me and actually telephoned to say that they had one two days out but if I wanted it, which I did, and then see who is given for the parents.

I had a similar experience with the GRO over a 'very-close-to' birth date and a nice lady in Southport rang me here in Ireland to ask if I wanted the cert. Even told me the entire cert details to make sure it was the correct one!

[MaryA]

Sounds well worth a punt!

[mr a morris]

Thanks Again Dickiesam,& Mary
I Will Look Into Your Sujestions,And Let You Know How I Get On,
ps No Mary I Didn't Find Gilberts Birth Certificate or Their Parents
Marriage.Regards AM8495

[dickiesam]

Apologies! In a hurry and made a mess of a previous post when attempting to edit a quote! This is what I wanted to say....
Re:

If they were not married the children may have been registered in their mother's maiden name.

Assuming the mother's maiden name is Jones based on there being a mother-in-law Mary Jones listed in the 1881....
Births Mar 1877: JONES, Gilbert - Liverpool 8b 195

And with the same thought in mind.....
Births Jun 1872: JONES, John Robert - Liverpool 8b 183
Births Dec 1873: JONES, John Roberts - W. Derby 8b 265

Re the above... If the mother was Mary Jones and she was not married to the father Gilbert Wilson [but was living with him as a common-law wife] she may have 'obeyed' the rule that an unmarried mother could not enter a father's name on the birth registration. It was necessary for the father to attend on the registrar in person if his name was to be on the birth certificate as father and the child was to bear his surname.

There was no such rule about having the child baptised and the priest would normally assume the parents were married, hence the later Wilson baptisms.
Al grist to the mill!

[dickiesam]

And here's a maybe thought as to why Gilbert and Mary were not married....
Marriages Jun 1868: Wilson, Gilbert married Tennant, Ann - W Derby 8b 537 [at St. Chrysostom, Everton].
But haven't found a Gilbert and Ann Wilson in Liverpool in the 1871. Is the marriage online so we can check fathers' names?
It is possible this Ann was only 17:
Births Jun 1851: Tennant, Ann - Liverpool 20 338