Children of the bridewell keeper

[MaryA]

There was no requirement to provide proof as there is now.

I'm not so sure there is a requirement now is there? I certainly didn't have to provide a birth certificate when I registered mum's death a few years ago.

[MaryA]

Hi DS.
have located the record and have the printout. The record has no mention of any parents from either side, nor have any of the other marriages shown on the page. Maybe I am doing something wrong.

What a great shame, but like the marriage records in England prior to 1837 which have scant information on them, unlike post 1837, the information required at the date of your marriage must not have been very informative either. Sorry, DS obviously gave the best advice he knew but probably none of us have as much experience of Scotlands records as we do of English ones.

[dickiesam]

Hi Gareth,
I had hoped for a little more from the record but this is from the 'Help' section on Scotland's People... Looks like your record falls into the "worst" category.

INFORMATION IN AN OPR BANNS & MARRIAGES RECORD
Do not expect too much from OPR banns & marriages records. The amount of information recorded can be variable and most entries contain very little detail.

At best: Date(s) of the proclamation of intended marriage and/or date of marriage, names of bride and groom and their parish of residence, sometimes the occupation of the groom and occasionally the name of the bride's father.
At worst:the names of the bride and groom recorded along with the fee paid in caution.

More:
OPR Banns & Marriages
Parish registers may record the date(s) of the proclamation of banns or the marriage date itself or both, but only one or the other will appear in the index. There is no indication given in the index as to whether the entry is a proclamation or a marriage, but it is more usual for the index entry to show the proclamation date.

Proclamation of Banns
The proclamation of banns was the notice of contract of marriage, read out in the Kirk before the marriage took place. Couples or their 'cautioners' (sponsors) were often required to pay a 'caution' or security to prove the seriousness of their intentions. Forthcoming marriages were supposed to be proclaimed on three successive Sundays, however, in practice, all three proclamations could be made on the same day on payment of a fee. If the bride and groom lived in different parishes, the impending marriage was proclaimed in both parishes, although not necessarily on the same days, therefore the dates in each register may be different. You may also find that one register may show the proclamation date and the other the date of the marriage itself.


Next step? Wait a while in case other eyes here [and more knowledgeable] have any suggestions. Your credits will 'keep' for a time but you could consider getting copies of both those birth entries I found. With luck the father's name will be there and Jean/Jane may have named one of her sons after her father? That's not conclusive proof of her parentage but as near as you can get at present.

[dickiesam]

There was no requirement to provide proof as there is now.

I'm not so sure there is a requirement now is there? I certainly didn't have to provide a birth certificate when I registered mum's death a few years ago.

I do believe I am in error! I know you have to give an actual date of birth and for some reason assumed the BC was necessary. I know when I registered my Mum's death in Peterborough in the 1980s we needed:
The medical certificate showing the cause of death (signed by a doctor) and her birth certificate.

However, https://www.gov.uk/register-a-death/y/e ... spital/yes has the following info, among other 'stuff'...
Take the medical certificate showing the cause of death (signed by a doctor) with you.
If available (but don’t worry if not), also take the person’s birth certificate, Council Tax bill, marriage or civil partnership certificate, passport and proof of address (eg utility bill), etc.

[MaryA]

Yes I was sure I didn't take the birth certificate as I don't have an up to date copy and wouldn't have taken the fragile original that I have.

[gf27]

Just a wee update, sorry practicing my Scottish. If I go onto public member trees on Anc and type in Jean Turpie, birth 1771 +- 5, Fyfe, a few hits come up, including the ones DS found. BUT, the Kingsbarns Turpie, born 1767 gives no death date. The Dunbog Turpie, born 1771 does, death Feb 1845 Dunbog.
No spouses are shown.
So I think the Kingsbarns girl is probably the one. Just for the record the Dunbog Jeans parents were Andrew Turpie and Margret Bower.
Where this takes me I have no idea.
DS even though the marriage record did not bear fruit for our search, I was very pleased with the printout.
Thank you for your efforts.

Gareth

[MaryA]

You also need to be very careful with online trees, do you know what the sources are for the entries you have found? Don't just accept them, perhaps try to make contact with the owner and ask how they came by their "facts" and what evidence they have.

[Bertieone]

Others will have an opinion, normally before 1855 in Scotland, I find the information on the LDS site is not improved on Scotland's People as far as names are concerned. If the parents names are not mentioned at a marriage for example on LDS, they are unlikely to be included on Scotland's People.

I have wasted more than enough credits in the past, getting the same information.

In the event you're not aware of it.

https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... %2CFife%22

[gf27]

MaryA.
Have tried to make contact with the tree owner. She lives in the states. so will have to wait and see.Berticone I have taken on board your comments and have travelled along that thread previously.
Cheers. Gareth

[gf27]

Sorry to drag this thread along but I have new info and a correction. First the correction. William Fletcher, burial 22 May 1827, St Nicholas, Liverpool, age 74, abode Edmond Street. Apologies to DS, you did ask for clarification, I was only about 5 years out William must have been much older than Jane (Jean). What Denomination was St Nicholas at that time?
New info. I have a copy of a Marriage record, 16th June 1815, between John Buckley and Elizabeth Fletcher. Could Elizabeth be Jacobs Sister?
Please refer to the !841 census record captured by DS on page one. The record includes Jane Fletcher and Elizabeth Buckley, Both born Scotland. Don't know were John was, away at sea?
As I said, sorry to go on a bit, but I would value an opinion.
Gareth.

[MaryA]

St Nicks was the Parish Church of Liverpool, I believe separate religions would not have applied. The records would be held at the Record Office http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/calmvie ... %2f4&pos=1

[Bertieone]

At the marriage, it looks like John Buckley was a Printer?

There may be a clue in the naming of the son, William James, after Elizabeth's and Jean's fathers.

1851 census,
Elizabeth Buckley,
William Jas

Class: HO107; Piece: 2189; Folio: 178; Page: 36;

[gf27]

Thanks MaryA.
Just trying to follow up your Jacobus Catholic theory . Sorry Bert noticed I spelt your name wrong on a post. I will follow up your Buckley 1851 census find, but I think it would be inappropriate to add it to this thread, I think I have hogged this one to the limit, but I will follow up.
At this stage, was it likely that Elizabeth Buckley was Jacobs sister?
Take care.
Gareth.

[Bertieone]

Hi Gareth,
You're not hogging the thread, that's what they're here for.

I think it is likely Elizabeth was Jean/Jane's daughter, which would make her Jacob's sister.

[MaryA]

And it's better to keep information together so that it can be referred to easily rather than beginning a new thread and us having to ask all over again.

[gf27]

Ok MaryA.
Will Hang in there. Bert can you clarify the bit where you say "naming of the son William James after William and Jeans Father" I understand the Elizabeth connection but not Jeans. Sorry I've probably missed something.
Bert your comment on the marriage record for Buckley and Fletcher. I thought it said John Buckley was a painter, but you were correct, it states printer
Your 1851 census record throws up something interesting. It states Elizabeth Buckley, head age 54, born Bathead Scotland. Me thinks it should have read BARRHEAD. Barrhead was partly formed by getting together textile workers, remember William Fletcher was a weaver. Could it have been the Fletchers slow march towards Liverpool, its on the way, well sort of.
In that 1851 census record what has become of John Buckley?. he was also missing in the 1841 record as well.
Hope this all makes sense .
Gareth.

[Bertieone]

Hi Gareth,

Elizabeth Fletcher/Buckley, Father, William Fletcher married to Jean/Jane Turpie. Jean/ Jane Turpie's father was James Turpie, Elizabeth's grandfather.

Daughter Ann, who Mary found is likely to have been named after Ann Webster, Jean/Jane Turpie's mother.

[Bertieone]

Note,

1851 census, Elizabeth Buckley is a widow.

[gf27]

Hi Bert.
Thanks for the Clarification, see where you are coming from. So it would seem probable that Jean was born was born Kingsbarns, Fyfe.
My Records Don't list Elizabeth Buckley as a widow, but it would seen likely.
There is a burial record at St John Liverpool, Feb 1816, John Buckley, aged 35.
If I have the right one, John and Elizabeth had not been married for long. I looked at the original record for an address, but I think it says INFIRMERY
I would welcome any contradictions re the Bathead should read Barrhead comment made by me. I just cant find a place called Bathead in Scotland which the record clearly states.
Thanks. Gareth.

[Bertieone]

I don't know what Elizabeth's birthplace is, my opinion is the word does not begin with a "B"

There's other examples of "B" on the census form to compare.