Elizabeth Southern born 1888 Speke

[hatton65]

I am looking for the birth mother of Elizabeth Southern born 1888 Speke Lancashire,

So far I think I have found her on the census's
in 1891 living with her grandparents aged 3
in 1901 a visitor at the Leadbetters in Hale aged 13
in 1911 a domestic servant for the maudsley in speke aged 23
She married Thomas Griffiths in 1912 at St Nicholas Halewood.

I found the marriage on line
Marriage: 13 Mar 1912 St Nicholas, Halewood, Lancs.
Thomas Griffiths - 23, Labourer, Bachelor, Halewood
Elizabeth Southern - 24, Spinster, Hunts Cross
Groom's Father: Thomas Prescot Griffiths, Labourer
Bride's Father: William Southern, Labourer
Witness: R. Leadbetter; A. Griffiths
Married by Banns by: F. B. Plummer
Register: Marriages 1846 - 1939, Page 153, Entry 305
Source: LDS Film 2147880

I states that William is her father? All that I know from the my family is that she was not brought up by her mother and nobody knows why, could she have died? If I could find a birth for her I could order a birth cert for her but cannot find this out

Any help will be much appreciated

Andrea

[Karen]

For reference:

1911

Reg District No 456
Piece 22695

1901

Piece 3508
Folio 22
Page No 15

1891

Piece 3004
Folio 47
Page No 52

[Karen]

In 1871, the grandmother can be found at Wood End Lane, Speke

Elizabeth Southern head widow 43 housekeeper Eccleston, Lancs
William Southern son unmarried 21 ag lab Hale, Lancs
Edward Southern son unmarried 19 ag lab Hale, Lancs

Class: RG10; Piece: 3854; Folio: 70; Page: 14

Presumably, this William is the father of Elizabeth.

[MaryA]

William's father appear to be Peter, according to the 1861 census, where he is age 39, born Speke, Elizabeth 31, Speke, William 10, Edward 9 and Elizabeth 2, all born Hale.

Edited to remove incorrect suggestion

[Blue70]

The William Southern marrying at Holy Trinity, Toxteth, in 1886 was a 32 year old labourer living on Parliament Street son of Thomas Southern, a Forgeman.


Blue

[Hilary]

Might be worth checking out this family even if it's just to eliminate them



1881 46 York St
William 31 stonworker bn Speke
Ann 27
Ellen 7
Peter 5
Eliza 2

1891
62 Dodd's Lane Speke
William Southern 41 groom bn Hale
Annie 35
Peter 15
Elizabeth 10

[MaryA]

Thanks Blue.

In that case the only option might be to try for the birth certificate, the nearest one being
Births Sep 1887 SOUTHERN Elizabeth W. Derby 8b 623
You could try ordering this www.gro.gov.uk but stating that the GRO reference is not known but that the father's name is William and you will only be sent if correct, otherwise your money will be refunded. This should give you her mother's name.

[Blue70]

Thanks Blue.

In that case the only option might be to try for the birth certificate, the nearest one being
Births Sep 1887 SOUTHERN Elizabeth W. Derby 8b 623
You could try ordering this http://www.gro.gov.uk but stating that the GRO reference is not known but that the father's name is William and you will only be sent if correct, otherwise your money will be refunded. This should give you her mother's name.

That church says Walton on the Hill as the parish on the record but it's in Toxteth a bit confusing about its location.


Blue

[MaryA]

It's always good to give the full details from the censuses so we know the other people in the household.

Now I was looking for William and I think this may be too coincidental to rule out, although you may have to delve to find the connections.
1881 census
RG11; Piece: 3719; Folio: 108; Page: 73
42 York Street, Garston
Ellen Leadbetter Head Widow 60 Speke
Eliza daur Unm 40 "
William son " 34 Gen Labr "
John " " 21 " "
Isabella daur 1 "

Next door is a family named Barnard from Wales and Widnes

then is
46 York Street, Garston
William Southern Head M 31 Stoneworker Lancashire Speke
Ann Wife M 27 Lancs Speke
Ellen daur 7 Scholar " "
Peter son 5 " " "
Eliza daur 2 " "

[MaryA]

Snap Ed Officer, definitely worth checking, particularly with Leadbetters living close by.

Blue I do believe Toxteth came under the remit of Walton on the Hill before changes came about.

[Hilary]

Hale Halewood Speke etc were in the Prescot Registration district.

[MaryA]

Hale Halewood Speke etc were in the Prescot Registration district.

In that case a possible is
Births Dec 1886 Southern Elizabeth Prescot 8b 648

[MaryA]

I am thinking there are definite connections between a Leadbetter family and the Southerns I gave for the 1881 census.

Baptisms at All Saints Speke both on 7th March, 1880 are
John George Leadbetter parents John and Mary, occupation Labourer, address Oglet - born 24 January 1880
next entry in the register
William Southern parents William and Ann, occupation Stone Moulder, address Hale Cliff, born 18 December, 1879.

Hale Cliff is the address where Elizabeth was lodging with the Leadbetters in 1901

[hatton65]

Thanks for all the replies, it's great to see that you are all willing to help me, I also think there is a family link with the leadbetters ( Richard leadbetter was a witness for the Marriage) and the address's you have mentioned all sound familiar, although I'm a little confused as where to start now (and that doesn't take much honestly ah ah). Should I order the birth cert for Elizabeth 1887 asking for the William being the father?

I have looked at the census for William and he has another daughter named Elizabeth born 1881, this is what is confusing me. I have got William on 1871 (46 York street) and on 1881(Dodds lane) or have I got the wrong family? The marriage to Thomas Griffiths is definitely right.

Thanks Andrea

[simone]

There is a marriage William Sothern to Ann Taylor

William Sothern
Birth Year:abt 1853
Age:22
Marriage Date:2 May 1875
Parish:Toxteth Park, St John the Baptist
Spouse's Name:Ann Taylor
Father's Name:Peter Sothern
Spouse Father's Name:William Taylor


http://sharing.ancestry.co.uk/4791156?h ... m=copy-url

Simone x

[MaryA]

William's father appear to be Peter, according to the 1861 census, where he is age 39, born Speke, Elizabeth 31, Speke, William 10, Edward 9 and Elizabeth 2, all born Hale.

I think Simone's find looks good, father is correct.

If you want to order the birth certificate, do check that the GRO reference is NOT KNOWN, just give the year and the parents names William & Ann, hopefully it will doubly confirm.

You need to spread your research a little wider, assuming you have access to census records? and investigate both families and just how they are connected, it will make a bigger tree and probably answer a few questions too.

[hatton65]

Good find Simone. Yes this looks good, in 1901 Elizabeth was a visitor at the leadbetters and Joseph, John and Joseph H Taylor were boarders the same address (Halecliff) so she was probably a visitor of the Taylors???

That must be the connection but I also think that there is a connection with the leadbetters too as Robert is witness to the marriage or maybe they were friends?

Thanks Andrea

[hatton65]

Have done some research and found out that Ann Southern nee Taylor and Margaret Leadbetter are Sisters, found Margarets marriage and her father is William Taylor and I found them on an earlier census as well. Thanks to all for putting me in the right direction. I think on the 1901 census it is Margarets brothers and a nephew. So it looks like Elizabeth is the niece on that census
Thanks Andrea

[MaryA]

Good finds, well done

[Hilary]

I think the Elizabeth Southern born 1886 registered Prescot Reg District was born in Widnes and living there on the census so probably not yours.

I wonder if she was perhaps registered with a different surname?